"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

Having people who take upon themselves to be good at the game doesn't mean you get to take advantage of them and slack off.

It's selfish and rude to boot.

Hell, technically it's rude to not be doing everything in your power to play 100% optimally in all content when you're grouped with others. Anything less and you're shortchanging the people around you to make your own life easier.

Having to be offended every time a DPS plays sloppy; a Healer doesn't DPS; a tank doesn't wall to wall just sounds exhausting to me. Carrying the occasional "bad" players is a lot more fun than your life in roulettes sounds.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Hell, technically it's rude to not be doing everything in your power to play 100% optimally in all content when you're grouped with others. Anything less and you're shortchanging the people around you to make your own life easier.

Having to be offended every time a DPS plays sloppy; a Healer doesn't DPS; a tank doesn't wall to wall just sounds exhausting to me. Carrying the occasional "bad" players is a lot more fun than your life in roulettes sounds.

I don't know where this argument is coming from, because doing your rotation well in roulettes isn't hard at all or exhausting.

They're not occasional and you've already proven yourself to not be on the carrying side of the field. ;-)

[Goji1639]

I don't know where this argument is coming from, because doing your rotation well in roulettes isn't hard at all or exhausting.

They're not occasional and you've already proven yourself to not be on the carrying side of the field. ;-)

Actually, it's usually the ones who complain the hardest about "carrying" people that are projecting and overcompensating. Like if you whine enough about bad players you'll convince the world that you're not one.

I never said doing your basic rotations is exhausting, but that's not all it takes to play 100% optimally.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Actually, it's usually the ones who complain the hardest about "carrying" people that are projecting and overcompensating. Like if you whine enough about bad players you'll convince the world that you're not one.

I never said doing your rotations is exhausting, but that's not all it takes to play 100% optimally.

Actually it's usually the ones aware of their underperforming who like to demonize and dehumanize people who pick up the slack and only want effort fairness during duties. ;-)

It's mostly about damage/rotations. Tanks who can't tank and healers who can't heal make duty completion nearly impossible. If it's not exhausting, why not do it anyway? Why defend not doing it anyway, unless you're defending your own playstyle? ;-)

[Goji1639]

Actually it's usually the ones aware of their underperforming who like to demonize and dehumanize people who pick up the slack and only want effort fairness during duties. ;-)

It's mostly about damage/rotations. Tanks who can't tank and healers who can't heal make duty completion nearly impossible. If it's not exhausting, why not do it anyway? Why defend not doing it anyway, unless you're defending your own playstyle? ;-)

I'm not defending doing it or not doing it; I just don't care when people don't do it.

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time, even if the healer isn't DPSing, so why create an issue? I'm only demonizing the people who start crap over nothing; and a healer not DPSing in a roulette is nothing. I'd just prefer you pick fights over the injustice of it all when I'm not around to be annoyed by it.

Snip

Critique isn't the same as criticism. Critique can be outlining a positive, whereas criticism is always outlining a negative. Advice is always outlining a negative, so it's criticism. There's no different ways to interpret it, so no matter how hard you try to play at semantics it won't work.

There's also no flaw in the point of doing it privately. Doing it privately is just more polite; the fact that being more polite doesn't guarantee the result you want doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Doing it privately may still embarrass and/or anger them, but it's less likely to because it's the polite approach. That's the point of being polite; to ease the person you're talking to and make them more receptive, but obviously doing things right doesn't guarantee anything.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I'm not defending doing it or not doing it; I just don't care when people don't do it.

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time, even if the healer isn't DPSing, so why create an issue? I'm only demonizing the people who start crap over nothing; and a healer not DPSing in a roulette is nothing. I'd just prefer you pick fights over the injustice of it all when I'm not around to be annoyed by it.

For someone who doesn't care, you're pretty passionate about defending it.

Sorry, but the needs of the many outrank the needs of the few. If people speaking up about issues ("picking fights" as you call it - as mentioned before, it's only a fight for people adamant about slacking off) bothers you that much, consider playing a single player game or a competitive multi-player one. You get to Mr. "self absorbed I don't want no drama" all you want.

Imagine defending being silent about issues because he doesn't want to be stressed by drama (in his eyes).

[Goji1639]

For someone who doesn't care, you're pretty passionate about defending it.

Sorry, but the needs of the many outrank the needs of the few. If people speaking up about issues ("picking fights" as you call it - as mentioned before, it's only a fight for people adamant about slacking off) bothers you that much, consider playing a single player game or a competitive multi-player one. You get to Mr. "self absorbed I don't want no drama" all you want.

Imagine defending being silent about issues because he doesn't want to be stressed by drama (in his eyes).

Right, it's only picking a fight if the person you pick a fight with fights back.

There's no "need of the many" you're fighting for; it's just your need to pick at people that you're trying to satisfy. That's your deal; it's not something everyone else needs to be onboard with. That's why I'd probably just vote kick people who pick fights. Let the "many" decide whether or not they want to let you work out your frustrations on their time.

[Lucy_Pyre]

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time

I'm quite certain you and I have wildly different opinions of a 'fast' clear. Because unless the dungeon is sub-13 minutes I don't consider that 'fast' at all, and to clear *most* dungeons in that time frame you have to have all party members involved doing relatively good amounts of damage.

[Goji1639]

I'm quite certain you and I have wildly different opinions of a 'fast' clear. Because unless the dungeon is sub-13 minutes I don't consider that 'fast' at all, and to clear *most* dungeons in that time frame you have to have all party members involved doing relatively good amounts of damage.

Most runs clear fast enough. If it's looking like the run may take 15-20 minutes then just start arguing with the healer who isn't DPSing. That'll speed things up.

[Melichoir]

In regards to critique, criticism, and advice:

...It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

Then you say:

Critique isn't the same as criticism. Critique can be outlining a positive, whereas criticism is always outlining a negative. Advice is always outlining a negative, so it's criticism. There's no different ways to interpret it, so no matter how hard you try to play at semantics it won't work.

So consider exactly what you just stated now vs what you initially stated:

Critique can be outlining a positive (but may also outline negatives as part of the nature of a critique is to review and analyze both successes and failures), where a criticism is always outlining a negative. This would entail that all criticisms can fall under critiques, but not all critiques can be a criticism. Which if you noticed what I quoted you from above, is the inverse of what you previously stated - all Critiques are part of criticisms, but not all criticisms are part of critiques.

The nature of a critique is that you will be looking for areas of improvement or faults, where you have failed and succeeded. To give feedback. This would mean, tacitly, that to tell someone "Good Job!" on a clear, that you are critiquing their performance (even if it is positive), which under your initial statement, is a criticism and therefore "...doesnt change the fact that it's rude to do it in public".

Im being specific about this because I want to stop you from flopping about on criticism, critique, and advice and stick to one single position regarding it. So yes, semantics matter here.

Either way, you dug yourself into a hole. Youre subjectively qualifying what is an acceptable critique vs what isnt based on what you perceive as a positive - which can vary from person to person, or you maintain that all critiques are criticisms and therefore no nos. Either way, you run the risk of offending and being rude to the recipient. Even if you said "Good Job!" on a clear, they can take that as "Good Job? I sucked. Stop patronizing me." or "Good Job? What about all those other times?" or "Good Job? I did excellent. Stop putting me down."

In all cases, even your best efforts to not offend and mean well have been interpreted as negative results. Because you cant control what other people think. Even if it is ridiculous

For all your best efforts to avoid offence, you cannot in any way, shape, or form guarantee that you will. Which makes the whole idea of "Oh, its polite to not say anything in front of others if you have criticisms/critiques/advice/etc." moot because the foundation of your point is that you are trying to spare embarrassment, feelings, drama, or etc, but since you cant control this, and other factors are to be considered (like how your fellow players feel, or promoting bad play, or seeing the opportunity for a teaching moment in a co-op environment, or treating your fellow player like a mature adult, or making sure the run goes relatively smooth and not waste time,).

No one is suggesting being an ass. That obviously doesnt work.

What is being suggested that rather than being overly polite, making a ton of assumptions, and deciding discourse based on what someone else feels, to just speak politely but freely in the moment. Because it matters to everyone involved. You think someone may feel bitter for throwing out a suggestion or advice, think how bitter tehyre gonna feel when they wipe the group cause something they did wrong and no one bothered to say a thing up til then.