"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Hell, technically it's rude to not be doing everything in your power to play 100% optimally in all content when you're grouped with others. Anything less and you're shortchanging the people around you to make your own life easier.

Having to be offended every time a DPS plays sloppy; a Healer doesn't DPS; a tank doesn't wall to wall just sounds exhausting to me. Carrying the occasional "bad" players is a lot more fun than your life in roulettes sounds.

I don't know where this argument is coming from, because doing your rotation well in roulettes isn't hard at all or exhausting.

They're not occasional and you've already proven yourself to not be on the carrying side of the field. ;-)

[Goji1639]

I don't know where this argument is coming from, because doing your rotation well in roulettes isn't hard at all or exhausting.

They're not occasional and you've already proven yourself to not be on the carrying side of the field. ;-)

Actually, it's usually the ones who complain the hardest about "carrying" people that are projecting and overcompensating. Like if you whine enough about bad players you'll convince the world that you're not one.

I never said doing your basic rotations is exhausting, but that's not all it takes to play 100% optimally.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Actually, it's usually the ones who complain the hardest about "carrying" people that are projecting and overcompensating. Like if you whine enough about bad players you'll convince the world that you're not one.

I never said doing your rotations is exhausting, but that's not all it takes to play 100% optimally.

Actually it's usually the ones aware of their underperforming who like to demonize and dehumanize people who pick up the slack and only want effort fairness during duties. ;-)

It's mostly about damage/rotations. Tanks who can't tank and healers who can't heal make duty completion nearly impossible. If it's not exhausting, why not do it anyway? Why defend not doing it anyway, unless you're defending your own playstyle? ;-)

[Melichoir]

Congratulating someone isn't criticism; congratulations are outlining a positive in someone's performance. Offering advice is criticism by design, as it's outlining a negative in someone's performance. But like I said, not all criticism is done with bad intentions or an accusatory tone. It's still rude to do in public, though.

It is under your premises. Congratulating them on a "Job well Done" is literally saying "You did this thing good and I approve of it." It is a criticism/critique/etc, and is being done so publicly, which is what you are stating, is a nono. As I pointed out, saying nothing also falls into a public criticism, so does saying it to some and not to others. Because the issue isnt you, its them. How they receive it is where youre placing the emphasis. How they 'might' or 'might not' take something is determining your actions, when in reality at some point you got to just throw up your hands and say things and let them sort it out.

I'm also not saying that doing it in private guarantees a receptive response. They may still tell you to take a walk and quit harassing them, but it's entirely on them at that point. You didn't criticize/embarrass them in public and did everything in your power to be courteous.

It seems like you get the flaws of your point, but dont want to take it to the logical conclusion. Doing it in private does not guarantee anything because you cannot control how the other person feels about anything. Even if done privately and politely, it may be taken as rude and offensive and there isnt a lick of anything you can do about that. That is the nature of human interactions - sometimes, even at your politest, people take it poorly.

It seems that to you, politeness means sparing embarrassment, because offering advice, even in a tell, is criticism. So you arent sparing them that. And as I already addressed, you have no guarentees of sparing embarrassment either.

You are still screwed no matter how you cut it by your metrics. You run the risk of embarrassing them, criticizing them, etc whether its in a tell or in public. No matter how you couch your language, they can take it negatively.

The only thing you have control of is what you say and do - and for the sake everyone involved, it makes more sense to (politely) offer up advice to help correct an issue in real time than to sit back, do nothing, and wait for the duty to end or fail before saying a thing. Which at that point you still have all the same risks involved that youre trying to avoid.

[Goji1639]

Actually it's usually the ones aware of their underperforming who like to demonize and dehumanize people who pick up the slack and only want effort fairness during duties. ;-)

It's mostly about damage/rotations. Tanks who can't tank and healers who can't heal make duty completion nearly impossible. If it's not exhausting, why not do it anyway? Why defend not doing it anyway, unless you're defending your own playstyle? ;-)

I'm not defending doing it or not doing it; I just don't care when people don't do it.

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time, even if the healer isn't DPSing, so why create an issue? I'm only demonizing the people who start crap over nothing; and a healer not DPSing in a roulette is nothing. I'd just prefer you pick fights over the injustice of it all when I'm not around to be annoyed by it.

Snip

Critique isn't the same as criticism. Critique can be outlining a positive, whereas criticism is always outlining a negative. Advice is always outlining a negative, so it's criticism. There's no different ways to interpret it, so no matter how hard you try to play at semantics it won't work.

There's also no flaw in the point of doing it privately. Doing it privately is just more polite; the fact that being more polite doesn't guarantee the result you want doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Doing it privately may still embarrass and/or anger them, but it's less likely to because it's the polite approach. That's the point of being polite; to ease the person you're talking to and make them more receptive, but obviously doing things right doesn't guarantee anything.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I'm not defending doing it or not doing it; I just don't care when people don't do it.

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time, even if the healer isn't DPSing, so why create an issue? I'm only demonizing the people who start crap over nothing; and a healer not DPSing in a roulette is nothing. I'd just prefer you pick fights over the injustice of it all when I'm not around to be annoyed by it.

For someone who doesn't care, you're pretty passionate about defending it.

Sorry, but the needs of the many outrank the needs of the few. If people speaking up about issues ("picking fights" as you call it - as mentioned before, it's only a fight for people adamant about slacking off) bothers you that much, consider playing a single player game or a competitive multi-player one. You get to Mr. "self absorbed I don't want no drama" all you want.

Imagine defending being silent about issues because he doesn't want to be stressed by drama (in his eyes).

[Goji1639]

For someone who doesn't care, you're pretty passionate about defending it.

Sorry, but the needs of the many outrank the needs of the few. If people speaking up about issues ("picking fights" as you call it - as mentioned before, it's only a fight for people adamant about slacking off) bothers you that much, consider playing a single player game or a competitive multi-player one. You get to Mr. "self absorbed I don't want no drama" all you want.

Imagine defending being silent about issues because he doesn't want to be stressed by drama (in his eyes).

Right, it's only picking a fight if the person you pick a fight with fights back.

There's no "need of the many" you're fighting for; it's just your need to pick at people that you're trying to satisfy. That's your deal; it's not something everyone else needs to be onboard with. That's why I'd probably just vote kick people who pick fights. Let the "many" decide whether or not they want to let you work out your frustrations on their time.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Right, it's only picking a fight if the person you pick a fight with fights back.

There's no "need of the many" you're fighting for; it's just your need to pick at people that you're trying to satisfy. That's your deal; it's not something everyone else needs to be onboard with. That's why I'd probably just vote kick people who pick fights. Let the "many" decide whether or not they want to let you work out your frustrations on their time.

The only one calling it picking a fight is you, because you consider it a nuisance. Funny how you say I'm only doing it for myself when you just basically admitted that "I don't care about your complaints so shut up and stop whining". You're only against because at a basic level, you know you're the same as the person needing to receive advice. You consider it rude and a nuisance because you consider it an attack on your playstyle.

Ofc they do. Picking up the slack is a win-win for everyone involved, including the slacker.

Trying to vote kick me would imply actually being on the duty, and not having been already kicked for differences of playstyle due to slacking off. ;-)

[Goji1639]

The only one calling it picking a fight is you, because you consider it a nuisance. Funny how you say I'm only doing it for myself when you just basically admitted that "I don't care about your complaints so shut up and stop whining". You're only against because at a basic level, you know you're the same as the person needing to receive advice. You consider it rude and a nuisance because you consider it an attack on your playstyle.

Ofc they do. Picking up the slack is a win-win for everyone involved, including the slacker.

Trying to vote kick me would imply actually being on the duty, and not having been already kicked for differences of playstyle due to slacking off. ;-)

I'm against it because 2 people arguing isn't helping finish the run. All it's accomplishing is letting you work out your frustration at "carrying" someone, while the person you singled out gets defensive. The only winner in that situation is you; because you got to pick at someone who made you mad. The rest of us get to sit around watching 2 people uselessly snipe at each other.

So, like I said, pick fights on your own time. You're not doing anyone else any favors.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I'm against it because 2 people arguing isn't helping finish the run. All it's accomplishing is letting you work out your frustration at "carrying" someone, while the person you singled out gets defensive. The only winner in that situation is you; because you got to pick at someone who made you mad. The rest of us get to sit around watching 2 people uselessly snipe at each other.

So, like I said, pick fights on your own time. You're not doing anyone else any favors.

Except my point isn't picking fights. It's giving advice so that in a 4 person team, there's not only 3 people giving significant contribute.

And like I said, you're only calling it picking a fight because giving advice to underperformers for some deep seated reason bothers you at a fundamental level.

Not to mention that, if the person heeds the advice, not only will you save time in the current run but also any future runs the person runs will be significantly shorter.