Next Jobs

[MirronTulaxia]

1. Do you want me to bring up posts where people have said it can't be? I can certainly track down those posts for you. As for what it brings to the table White Mage doesn't, it doesn't use anything Light, and White Mage has dropped Wind/Earth spells. It's really not any more special than that. It's the same difference Geomancer would have with Black Mage. In terms of mechanics there are numerous things a Geomancer could do, personally I'd like to see it focus on ground based persistent effects. To expand, it's that nothing especially stands out for Geomancer as a DPS versus Geomancer as a healer. You can find arguments for both and they make sense. Treating it like a foregone conclusion it'll be one (whichever way you lean) is silly.

2. Sure? I wasn't talking about the OP specifically when I made that comment.

3. I find it really weird you're trying to call me out about being emotional in this conversation when of the two of us you're the one who has multiple exclamation marks and in general typing in such a way that to me at least indicates excessive emotions.

4. I know who built the Swallow's Compass. That doesn't mean the spirits summoned by it do the same things as Geomancers. That's like arguing Voidsent (which were summoned by Black Mages in the Mhach war) do the same thing as Black Mages, and it's very easy to point to things Voidsent do that Black Mages don't.

5. They actually didn't. Qi of Water isn't the same as Cure (or Cure II) in terms of animations. Which is my point. Qi of Water uses the Water aether coloring. Which is kind of the key point to this entire thing. They didn't just give him Conjurer animations, they gave him something different. We can argue about how difficult/easy it is to do, but that they chose to give him something other than only a reskin to me speaks about what they want.

6. I'm... not sure you quite understand what I'm arguing here as you're kind of missing the key distinction. None of this is about the fact that he's a Conjurer. It's that he's not just a Conjurer. Maybe if I bold it it'll be a bit more clear. If they had only left him as a Conjurer without changing any of the animations I wouldn't think anything of it. But that they did feel the need to have him do something different from a Conjurer to me means it's a meaningful thing. Why else do it? We can argue what the meaning is, but that it has meaning to me seems pretty obvious.

[BasicBlake]

1. Do you want me to bring up posts where people have said it can't be? I can certainly track down those posts for you. As for what it brings to the table White Mage doesn't, it doesn't use anything Light, and White Mage has dropped Wind/Earth spells. It's really not any more special than that. It's the same difference Geomancer would have with Black Mage. In terms of mechanics there are numerous things a Geomancer could do, personally I'd like to see it focus on ground based persistent effects. To expand, it's that nothing especially stands out for Geomancer as a DPS versus Geomancer as a healer. You can find arguments for both and they make sense. Treating it like a foregone conclusion it'll be one (whichever way you lean) is silly.

2. Sure? I wasn't talking about the OP specifically when I made that comment.

3. I find it really weird you're trying to call me out about being emotional in this conversation when of the two of us you're the one who has multiple exclamation marks and in general typing in such a way that to me at least indicates excessive emotions.

4. I know who built the Swallow's Compass. That doesn't mean the spirits summoned by it do the same things as Geomancers. That's like arguing Voidsent (which were summoned by Black Mages in the Mhach war) do the same thing as Black Mages, and it's very easy to point to things Voidsent do that Black Mages don't.

5. They actually didn't. Qi of Water isn't the same as Cure (or Cure II) in terms of animations. Which is my point. Qi of Water uses the Water aether coloring. Which is kind of the key point to this entire thing. They didn't just give him Conjurer animations, they gave him something different. We can argue about how difficult/easy it is to do, but that they chose to give him something other than only a reskin to me speaks about what they want.

6. I'm... not sure you quite understand what I'm arguing here as you're kind of missing the key distinction. None of this is about the fact that he's a Conjurer. It's that he's not just a Conjurer. Maybe if I bold it it'll be a bit more clear. If they had only left him as a Conjurer without changing any of the animations I wouldn't think anything of it. But that they did feel the need to have him do something different from a Conjurer to me means it's a meaningful thing. Why else do it? We can argue what the meaning is, but that it has meaning to me seems pretty obvious.

Not to derail from your guys’ fun time, but the Sai Taisui weren’t summoned like the voidsent. They were created like golems. Think Kuribu for the white mages. Not demons summed from the void.

[Archwizard]

Do you want me to bring up posts where people have said it can't be? I can certainly track down those posts for you.

Go ahead.

As for what it brings to the table White Mage doesn't, it doesn't use anything Light, and White Mage has dropped Wind/Earth spells. It's really not any more special than that.

I find it amusing that you're arguing what it wouldn't have instead of saying one unique thing that it would have -- and every healer has a ground-targeted effect, while zero casters do anymore. Once again, you are only arguing using negatives.

I find it really weird you're trying to call me out about being emotional in this conversation

I didn't say anything about being emotional. I just said your argument style is nonsensical and petty.

That's like arguing Voidsent (which were summoned by Black Mages in the Mhach war) do the same thing as Black Mages, and it's very easy to point to things Voidsent do that Black Mages don't.

... and easy to point out lots of things Mhachi sorcerers could do.
Also, Voidsent usually weren't created by Black Mages, and exist on a separate plane to be called upon? While Sai Taisui are constructs created by Geomancers and given life through their magic?
A better analogy for Voidsent would be the Apas, Dharas or Anilas summoned by the Sai Taisui.

I'm... not sure you quite understand what I'm arguing here as you're kind of missing the key distinction. None of this is about the fact that he's a Conjurer. It's that he's not just a Conjurer.

Placeholder.

[MirronTulaxia]

Go ahead.



I find it amusing that you're arguing what it wouldn't have instead of saying one unique thing that it would have -- and every healer has a ground-targeted effect, while zero casters do anymore. Once again, you are only arguing using negatives.



I didn't say anything about being emotional. I just said your argument style is nonsensical and petty.



... and easy to point out lots of things Mhachi sorcerers could do.
Also, Voidsent usually weren't created by Black Mages, and exist on a separate plane to be called upon? While Sai Taisui are constructs created by Geomancers and given life through their magic?
A better analogy for Voidsent would be the Apas, Dharas or Anilas summoned by the Sai Taisui.



Placeholder.

1. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5350459
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5351810
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5351811
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5351815
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5357687
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5358752
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5358795 (This one is important here as it says there isn't even a slight possibility)
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360090
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360164 (I would argue this counts due to improbable)
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360362
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360374
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360534
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360688
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5360706
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5361471

I'll point out, this is just my using one thread. I'm sure I can find others. And this is only my using things since I rejoined this forum, not digging further. All of those are either explicitly or implicitly denying the possibility of Geomancer as a healer.

2. I... was arguing what it would have if you read the "Wind/Earth" correctly. The obvious answer is it has Wind/Earth/Water. But probably most simple is "what do you see as being new for a healer"? Bearing in mind aesthetics are arbitrary, what mechanics can you point at as being possible for a new Healer that Geomancer can't use?

3. You said "I wasn't pinning it on you. I'm saying that you use nonsense and petty arguments against it as if Water mages killed your parents". To me that reads like you're saying I'm overly emotional about this. Feel free to try to paint it as something else though.

4. I mean, I can point at Egis then, which are created by Summoners. Which... do things differently than what a Summoner does.

5. Are... you planning on finishing the placeholder? I can cite him using Qi of Water with water aether, and I can cite the wind aether of Cure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRaKBJ8l-0 at 49 seconds shows him doing it, and https://i.imgur.com/6PhyYbl.png?1 is the Wind Aether of Cure. So they didn't just copy and paste, they changed it. Again, we can argue about the degree to which things changed, we can argue about what it means, but that it's not just Conjurer with different names but a different aether whorl means they made the change for a reason.

[Archwizard]

I'll point out, this is just my using one thread. I'm sure I can find others.

Every one of those posts I'm seeing is defending the lore and role distinction between GEO and CNJ, noting the great amount of precedent in both the lore and throughout the series for it as a damage job and comparatively little on its unique healing abilities, or pointing out that if it were to be listed as a Healer it would have/rely on more significant overlap with WHM than any other two jobs have with each other. I'm also noting that none of the posts say "It could never be a healer" as you say, several even cede healing is possible, but point out that it would be redundant, unprecedented, or otherwise highly unlikely.

But probably most simple is "what do you see as being new for a healer"? Bearing in mind aesthetics are arbitrary, what mechanics can you point at as being possible for a new Healer that Geomancer can't use?

Glad you asked!

A Healer candidate I've proposed in the past has been Necromancer (or similar dark-based mage). An odd choice perhaps, but there's enough archetypal data available to build it for potentially any role, with healer as one it would be most unique on (considering it would have to compete with DRK and SMN in other roles). Necromancer has had precedent in the series, having been proposed as a job in FF11, and has some lore sprinkled throughout FF14 establishing they do exist.
And let's not forget, traits and a limit break based on reviving the dead.

Drain-based healing, including siphoning job gauge resources through attacking or displacing its own health onto allies, giving it the essence of a "Battle Healer".
Distinct cooldowns like giving allies' damage vampirism or ghastly evasion, inverting incoming damage, and placing phylacteries on allies as last-hit protection (think Reraise, or Living Dead).
Crowd control effects like fear, paralysis, and zombification to reduce incoming damage.
Curses and execution attacks (like Urianger's version of Death) for damage support.

Name one of those that another healer has, much less crossing over with GEO. Sets the bar pretty high, I must say.

Do I think it's likely? Maybe, maybe not; this is already assuming exactly the kind of healer overhaul that players have been begging for and the devs have been hiding behind for years. I'm sure someone will pin it as being oddly specific, but I'm not too attached to the "how" as long as the "what" is outside the box. It's exactly why I've been averse to Chemist or Time Mage suggestions, since none of them really bring anything new or practical to the table that AST hasn't already experimented with and quietly disposed of behind the shed.

Meanwhile a GEO healer would just be... tossing a clone of Asylum and/or Sacred Soil out a lot, I guess? A super immobile healer? Pass on multiple counts.

To me that reads like you're saying I'm overly emotional about this. Feel free to try to paint it as something else though.

You literally quoted the part where I said you're being nonsensical and petty, and I also revised my example before you replied to the post it was in because I agreed that the original phrasing was extreme.

I mean, I can point at Egis then, which are created by Summoners. Which... do things differently than what a Summoner does.

You could, but they're not infused with the power of the Summoner, they're distilled from the residual essence of a Primal the Summoner slew. The process of their creation is explicitly about separating that essence from the Summoner.

Are... you planning on finishing the placeholder?

No, I was reiterating in one word, Kyokuho's abilities are obviously a placeholder.

I can cite him using Qi of Water with water aether, and I can cite the wind aether of Cure.

Oh boy this argument again.

Yes, they changed one visual aspect. Wow. The camera doesn't even sit on him for long enough to know if they reused the Vercure animation (or Benefic) instead of regular Cure, or if they actually went out and used the Water casting animations from mobs, but I rather think it doesn't matter considering how inconsequential we have already agreed the aesthetic aspect is compared to the mechanics, or rather, lack therein that I've been discussing.

[MirronTulaxia]

1. Saying "I would be willing to acknowledge a slight possibility if" is saying there isn't a slight possibility. And I said explicitly or implicitly for a reason.

2. If the only thing that you think justifies a new healer is a Necromancer you've kind of set up a task that doesn't work unless it's a Necromancer. If any existing FF jobs in general don't work unless you're basically making up something new then there really isn't any solution I could throw out there that you'd accept. Though on an unrelated note what do you mean by Urianger's version of Death?

3. I was explaining why I said it read emotional, nothing more.

4. They aren't infused but they are created. Which is what you asked for.

5. Ah. And I mean, I literally acknowledged that it was only a visual aspect. But the point is that they felt it was important to change it. Which is where the "why did they change it" aspect of it all comes in. I think there is a big distinction between just copying Conjurer and making a change to it. One of them requires a touch more work after all.

[Archwizard]

If the only thing that you think justifies a new healer is a Necromancer you've kind of set up a task that doesn't work unless it's a Necromancer. If any existing FF jobs in general don't work unless you're basically making up something new then there really isn't any solution I could throw out there that you'd accept.

Aaaaand back to the ignore list.

I was already tired of seeing you twist people's words and ignoring context, but there's just no engaging with someone who hallucinates meaning.

Moving on.

[Jkap_Goat]

I would like to see geomancer as the next job

[MirronTulaxia]

Aaaaand back to the ignore list.

I was already tired of seeing you twist people's words and ignoring context, but there's just no engaging with someone who hallucinates meaning.

Moving on.

Literally that’s what you said reads like to me. You have a very specific idea of what you want (Necromancer), or you’re being much more strict with what a new healer has to bring to the table than what a DPS brings. There really isn’t any other way to read that comment. You accept a new DPS Geomancer, you don’t think aesthetics matter so it must be just mechanics, but somehow it can’t be mechanically distinct as a Healer and only as a DPS? That makes zero sense.

[Vendalwind]

You are twisting peoples words. Reading full assumptions because you are trying to shut out alternative desires and design that dont fit your motive. I used the tautalogical word once. Not sure how that quantifies as a lot but whatever you do you. And you ask me to better read your posts?

You pretend the OP and others are trying to shut down geo healer as a concept while yourself trying to shut down a different concept: namely geo as dps. And your arguments attempt to shut out a possibility. While the OPs argument never even tried to mention the healer geo until you brought it up as your way or the highway thinking.

Can you not see how hypocritical your logic circles are?

You assume these people are shutting out the possibility of geo healer. And then instead of providing evidence for geo healer (the logical thing to do) you just attack their guesses hopes and opinions that are exactly that: just yuesses hopes and opinions.

Stop assuming. Stop twisting words. Stop trying to control everyone that has different desires or hopes for the possible Geo future in the game. You are definately going on my ignore list too mirron.