Auto attack: A complete battle system

[Vanguard319]

You don't have to say anything else. Thats your style of play and what your doing currently is up to you. I'm not hating or anything. I've been playing since early December, not as long as most but what can I do? Currently, for most of the DoW (Pugilist, Lancer, even Marauder) Its honestly just a spam fest. Spam includes everything from attacking to skills. Theres no planning, barely any strategy involved from fight to fight. I'm supporting the auto attack function myself cause not only will there be more time to use skills and type (for those who don't use vent or any other form of voice chat) its the only way to form strategies and speak to teammates. Can't exactly do that if your attacking (DoT is as important as any Spike damage) at the moment. If we want this game to have a deep and fulfilling battle system, spamming of the light attack has to go. I'm not saying everyone does spam, but I'd say a good 80% does; which pretty much negates having all those interesting abilities. IMHO, Auto-attack will bring out the best in this battle system.

Then in your own words, there is no need for auto attack. Think of the job's default attack as equivalent to the fight command in previous FF games. You are also stating that auto attack will increase tactical flexibility, but in reality, it will not work at all in regards to certain jobs (archer being the most obvious), in addition, when the computer is doing the fighting for you, how is that bringing out the best in a battle system? I'd much rather decide what attack I'm going to use rather than let the game decide for me. Sorry, but it sounds to me like you're promoting a battle system that requires a person to do as little actual thinking as possible.

[kukurumei]

Then in your own words, there is no need for auto attack. Think of the job's default attack as equivalent to the fight command in previous FF games. You are also stating that auto attack will increase tactical flexibility, but in reality, it will not work at all in regards to certain jobs (archer being the most obvious), in addition, when the computer is doing the fighting for you, how is that bringing out the best in a battle system? I'd much rather decide what attack I'm going to use rather than let the game decide for me. Sorry, but it sounds to me like you're promoting a battle system that requires a person to do as little actual thinking as possible.

Gee you just well...slapped every MMO in near history...with "as little thinking as possible".

I won't say more, especially when FF11 has subscribers and FF14 doesn't. (As well with the archer not usable) Seems no one ever head of attack speed and weapon skills from your point of view.

[Alcide]

Gee you just well...slapped every MMO in near history...with "as little thinking as possible".

I won't say more, especially when FF11 has subscribers and FF14 doesn't. (As well with the archer not usable) Seems no one ever head of attack speed and weapon skills from your point of view.

Can we please stop comparing FF14 to any other mmo? it's clearely useless since the gameplay is totally different, ff11 in particular.

in FF11 it took ages to fill the TP bar so without an auto attack feature it would be something unplayable, in ff14 it's much faster and you have lots of TP buffing abilities, so it takes 3 hit to fill your TP bar with a normal attack, only 1 hit if you're using Multyshot as archer or Pierce as lancer on a lot of mobs, you also have Syphon TP so you can use WS as a mage without landing a single normal attack, so what's the use of an auto-attack feature?

I can understand that it could be usefull for the first 20 ranks when you don't have a full arsenal of abilities, so maybe a toggle feature could work, but it takes like a few of hours now to reach that rank and I really doubt someone would use it after that time.

IMHO the real problem is the you can reach rank 50 using just normal attacks: with a 8/15 party even if everyone are just using normal attacks a few mobs stay alive enough time to let you use a lot of skills, but that's something that can't be adressed by adding an auto attack feature.

Basically you want to do more skills, but the auto-attack still won't allow you to do that.
Maybe this can be addressed by lowering drastically the normal attacks' damage making it impossible to kill a mob using just them, so you can still fill your TP bar quickly with 1-3 hit but at that time the mob's hp bar will still be almost full and you'll have to use more skills and less normal attacks.

[Vanguard319]

Gee you just well...slapped every MMO in near history...with "as little thinking as possible".

I apologize, I failed to realize that some of the forum users are incapable of rational thought aside from getting thier way. Allow me therefore to enlighten you on why I feel an auto-attack is not necessary:

The first MMO I ever played was Star Wars Galaxies, and that game certainly did not have auto attack of ANY kind. Even after it's developers dumbed down the battle system, it still had no auto attack, subsequently, they dumbed it down to attract more players, and instead alienated thier target market to the point where people quit en masse. Therefore, to defend my previous statement, dumbing down the battle system is more likely to make the game worse than better, especially when that game was not built with an auto attack feature in mind.

You say I didn't put any thought into my previous statement, but let's assume that an auto battle feature were added, using archer as an example, an auto-attack would wreck that job outright. In FFXI, Ranger had melee weapons as main weapons with the ranged weapon as a sub weapon. In XIV, archers have only thier bow as thier main weapon, meaning that it would be subject to auto attack, unfortunately this would make it difficult for an archer to use his/her skills effectively, especially multishot, raging strike, and hawkseye. You would never be able to use all of them all at once, let alone use them for a weaponskill before your character auto attacked and wiped your buffs. As you stated, you could set the attack speed for a long delay, this is true, however, that delay would be so long that you would seriously hamper the job's ability to do damage over time, where archer gets alot of it's damage from. In addition, unlike the other DoW, you have a limited amount of ammunition. Even if you are carrying 2~3 stacks, there will be a point where you will run out of ammunition, and your quiver WILL go dry. If that arc is hit by an accuracy down debuff like blindness, you can bet that you will waste an excessive number of arrows before it wears off. If and when SE introduces Musketeer as a playable job, it will be like wise crippled for the same reasons.

So, gimped skillset, gimped Dot, needlessly wasted ammo. Do I really need to show "how little thought" I put into my statement?

[ChiefCurrahee]

I apologize, I failed to realize that some of the forum users are incapable of rational thought aside from getting thier way. Allow me therefore to enlighten you on why I feel an auto-attack is not necessary:

The first MMO I ever played was Star Wars Galaxies, and that game certainly did not have auto attack of ANY kind. Even after it's developers dumbed down the battle system, it still had no auto attack, subsequently, they dumbed it down to attract more players, and instead alienated thier target market to the point where people quit en masse. Therefore, to defend my previous statement, dumbing down the battle system is more likely to make the game worse than better, especially when that game was not built with an auto attack feature in mind.

You say I didn't put any thought into my previous statement, but let's assume that an auto battle feature were added, using archer as an example, an auto-attack would wreck that job outright. In FFXI, Ranger had melee weapons as main weapons with the ranged weapon as a sub weapon. In XIV, archers have only thier bow as thier main weapon, meaning that it would be subject to auto attack, unfortunately this would make it difficult for an archer to use his/her skills effectively, especially multishot, raging strike, and hawkseye. You would never be able to use all of them all at once, let alone use them for a weaponskill before your character auto attacked and wiped your buffs. As you stated, you could set the attack speed for a long delay, this is true, however, that delay would be so long that you would seriously hamper the job's ability to do damage over time, where archer gets alot of it's damage from. In addition, unlike the other DoW, you have a limited amount of ammunition. Even if you are carrying 2~3 stacks, there will be a point where you will run out of ammunition, and your quiver WILL go dry. If that arc is hit by an accuracy down debuff like blindness, you can bet that you will waste an excessive number of arrows before it wears off. If and when SE introduces Musketeer as a playable job, it will be like wise crippled for the same reasons.

So, gimped skillset, gimped Dot, needlessly wasted ammo. Do I really need to show "how little thought" I put into my statement?

If you reread my OP, and read many others ideas for AA, you have an option to toggle it on/off. For reasons of not breaking crowd control, or by your example to use skills that buff attacks.

Now as a Archer you could start by engaging a mob you press 1 to start your Auto attack rounds. Once you get to a point where you want to use stacked TP skills or other abilities you press 1 again turn AA off use your buffed skills then press 1 to recommence AA.

Or alternately skills can be reworked to a point where AA won't effect buffed skills.
example:
Hawk's Eye: Your eyes gain hawk-like precision, increasing the accuracy of your next attack.
becomes
Hawk's Eye: Your eyes gain hawk-like precision, increasing the accuracy of your next ABILITY

Multishot: Nock an additional arrow for your next attack, up to a maximum of 3.
becomes
Multishot: Nock an additional arrow for your next ABILITY, up to a maximum of 3.

[Vanguard319]

If you reread my OP, and read many others ideas for AA, you have an option to toggle it on/off. For reasons of not breaking crowd control, or by your example to use skills that buff attacks.

Now as a Archer you could start by engaging a mob you press 1 to start your Auto attack rounds. Once you get to a point where you want to use stacked TP skills or other abilities you press 1 again turn AA off use your buffed skills then press 1 to recommence AA.

Or alternately skills can be reworked to a point where AA won't effect buffed skills.
example:
Hawk's Eye: Your eyes gain hawk-like precision, increasing the accuracy of your next attack.
becomes
Hawk's Eye: Your eyes gain hawk-like precision, increasing the accuracy of your next ABILITY

Multishot: Nock an additional arrow for your next attack, up to a maximum of 3.
becomes
Multishot: Nock an additional arrow for your next ABILITY, up to a maximum of 3.

You make a good point, unfortunately there is a problem with your reasoning, and anyone with a well progressed archer should understand this counter-argument right away:

Multishot and Trifurcate ONLY affect light shot, they can't be used with other attacks or weapon skills. I even verified this for myself when I tried using them with close shot, and heavy shot, so that idea will not work the way you expect without major reworking of archer abilities. as for assigning buffs to work only with abilities, there may be times where an archer may wish to use a buff like hawkseye or raging strike with light shot, for example, at the beginning of a fight where the arc has no TP and has to hit a very evasive target. Your proposal would deny an arc that level of tactical flexibility.

If you are hopelessly hell-bent on getting an auto-attack feature, I would propose this:

give each player a universal ability that costs 0 AP and can be swapped with the default attack, and call it something like

Steady strike - pace your rate of attack to conserve stamina, while dealing constant damage, continues until ability is used again.

Essentially, it would be a looping default attack that only uses a certain amount of the stamina gauge at any time, as the amount of stamina decreases, the attack rate adjusts to allow the gauge to recover.

e.g. if stamina gauge is low, then the attack rate = slowest pace, and stamina recovery = highest rate.
if stamina gauge is high, then att rate = fast pace, and stamina recovery = slow pace.
if stamina gauge is full, then att rate and recovery are both equal.

in addition, make some minor adjustments to the stamina gauge, either abilities use slightly less stamina to function, the stamina gauge refills slightly faster, or possibly even both.

This I believe would satisfy the pro-auto people and thier insatiable need to not think, while giving the pro-manual people the free choice to choose thier strategy, This is a fair enough compromise, and it can be implemented without excessively altering the battle engine.

[ChiefCurrahee]

You make a good point, unfortunately there is a problem with your reasoning, and anyone with a well progressed archer should understand this counter-argument right away:

Multishot and Trifurcate ONLY affect light shot, they can't be used with other attacks or weapon skills. I even verified this for myself when I tried using them with close shot, and heavy shot, so that idea will not work the way you expect without major reworking of archer abilities. as for assigning buffs to work only with abilities, there may be times where an archer may wish to use a buff like hawkseye or raging strike with light shot, for example, at the beginning of a fight where the arc has no TP and has to hit a very evasive target. Your proposal would deny an arc that level of tactical flexibility.

If you are hopelessly hell-bent on getting an auto-attack feature, I would propose this:

give each player a universal ability that costs 0 AP and can be swapped with the default attack, and call it something like

Steady strike - pace your rate of attack to conserve stamina, while dealing constant damage, continues until ability is used again.

Essentially, it would be a looping default attack that only uses a certain amount of the stamina gauge at any time, as the amount of stamina decreases, the attack rate adjusts to allow the gauge to recover.

e.g. if stamina gauge is low, then the attack rate = slowest pace, and stamina recovery = highest rate.
if stamina gauge is high, then att rate = fast pace, and stamina recovery = slow pace.
if stamina gauge is full, then att rate and recovery are both equal.

in addition, make some minor adjustments to the stamina gauge, either abilities use slightly less stamina to function, the stamina gauge refills slightly faster, or possibly even both.

This I believe would satisfy the pro-auto people and thier insatiable need to not think, while giving the pro-manual people the free choice to choose thier strategy, This is a fair enough compromise, and it can be implemented without excessively altering the battle engine.

Lets pretend SE slapped on AA just for the sake of shitsandgiggles.

You see the mob you want to kill you draw your weapon. (you still haven't engaged it yet because you didn't press 1 to start your attacks) You use your buff skills: Multishot and Trifurcate you're now buffed up and ready to decimate the mobs face with your salvo of arrows. you press 1 you rain death from above with you "light shot" which also happens to be your AA, if you take no further actions your character will a few seconds later attack again with light shot.

Now lets say you're fighting a NM You take the above steps to open the fight. so you're AAing and using skills then "Multishot" and "Trifurcate" timers are up, you want to do some spike DMG. so you press 1 to disengage your AA buff up and press 1 again to continue.


Alternately you could be fighting that NM and the delay between auto attacks is ~3 seconds (one one thousand two one thousand three one thousand) your timers for Multishot and Trifurcate are up you can press a macro between AAs and buff up. (I suppose stacked skills x3 and if you have multiple you would want to turn AA off) But for single stacked skills this would work very well.

[Vanguard319]

Lets pretend SE slapped on AA just for the sake of shitsandgiggles.

You see the mob you want to kill you draw your weapon. (you still haven't engaged it yet because you didn't press 1 to start your attacks) You use your buff skills: Multishot and Trifurcate you're now buffed up and ready to decimate the mobs face with your salvo of arrows. you press 1 you rain death from above with you "light shot" which also happens to be your AA, if you take no further actions your character will a few seconds later attack again with light shot.

Now lets say you're fighting a NM You take the above steps to open the fight. so you're AAing and using skills then "Multishot" and "Trifurcate" timers are up, you want to do some spike DMG. so you press 1 to disengage your AA buff up and press 1 again to continue.


Alternately you could be fighting that NM and the delay between auto attacks is ~3 seconds (one one thousand two one thousand three one thousand) your timers for Multishot and Trifurcate are up you can press a macro between AAs and buff up. (I suppose stacked skills x3 and if you have multiple you would want to turn AA off) But for single stacked skills this would work very well.

*sigh* I shouldn't even give this the dignity of an answer, your counter-arguments are weak at worst, and they don't validate your argument that auto-attack is better than active-time battle. I even suggested a compromise, but it's clear you won't rest until I mindlessly agree with everything you say. So I'll say this intead:

Since the player poll showed active-time battle winning out over auto battle, even by a narrow margin, it is safe to say the they will not remove active battle. The most you can hope for is a toggle or programmable que.