Suggesting Ideas for Blue Mage with feedback & Removing Limited Job Status

[Melichoir]

Hello everyone! I have a google document to show regarding about Blue Mage and the status of Limited Jobs. I tried to copy the entire document into the post, but unfortunately it has a max capacity of 3k words. Here is the link for the document.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

While it may look complete, I feel as though it still needed more time to be worked on. please do note I will try as much as I can to update the document. I would also like to point out a few disclaimers; I have to reach max Job Points as Blue Mage in FFXI; I am suggesting ideas and concept designs and will be thinking of new ideas to provide.

The goal of this post I am making is to bring attention to Blue Mages in FFXIV alongside with the bad decision of having Limited Jobs, with hopes in that Naoki Yoshida and his development team could see some of the posts made about Blue Mages and have a look at my document.

Let's bring Blue Mages to the game as a Full Job, as well as having fun with them in future capped content!

Edit:
To Be Updated

So I guess the proposal would be to remove things like Missile then? Cause despite not using it for bosses, it still is an exceptionally strong skill on trash. Also would need to remove things like Final Sting, cause that would be a problem. Any skills that give flat % damage boosts on short CD would have to be changed.

There's a reason that the 4 minute AV for Mogtomes is a thing. It's because BLUs kit allows for it. If you were to turn BLU into a full class, as proposed, a lot of the status skills and abilities would have to be removed/reworked or prevented from being used in raid content. Otherwise BLU would be a must have in Raids, unless the offset issue is to gut the DPS of the class, but then you run into DPS check issues and it makes it being a full class moot.

Face it, BLU as a concept does not function within the systems of FFXIV. And frankly, Id ont know if it should. I like the class, it's fun to go do the cheese stuff with it, or the Masked Carnival. I like how it is currently, and frankly to make it a full class is gonna require it being reworked from the ground up with a lot of it's skills being homogenized or removed to be practical. I dont think that this is for the best for the class, cause youll likely just end up with a bland mage class that just uses 'glamours' for spells.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

So I guess the proposal would be to remove things like Missile then? Cause despite not using it for bosses, it still is an exceptionally strong skill on trash. Also would need to remove things like Final Sting, cause that would be a problem. Any skills that give flat % damage boosts on short CD would have to be changed.

There's a reason that the 4 minute AV for Mogtomes is a thing. It's because BLUs kit allows for it. If you were to turn BLU into a full class, as proposed, a lot of the status skills and abilities would have to be removed/reworked or prevented from being used in raid content. Otherwise BLU would be a must have in Raids, unless the offset issue is to gut the DPS of the class, but then you run into DPS check issues and it makes it being a full class moot.

Face it, BLU as a concept does not function within the systems of FFXIV. And frankly, Id ont know if it should. I like the class, it's fun to go do the cheese stuff with it, or the Masked Carnival. I like how it is currently, and frankly to make it a full class is gonna require it being reworked from the ground up with a lot of it's skills being homogenized or removed to be practical. I dont think that this is for the best for the class, cause youll likely just end up with a bland mage class that just uses 'glamours' for spells.

Removal of spells? No, but adjusting the spells? I can wholly agree, although I would like to point out that missiles won’t work on Alexander Trash in A12S, mainly because they are a type of mobs categorized as Machines, Machines won’t get affected by Missiles or even Launcher, so people will still have to adjust accordingly. I’d like to also point out that even if we have these skills, if Blue Mages were to participate in the current tier of raids, there is not much to add unless you count E7S & E8S (Eden Raids) where they have adds. Will they be affected by missiles or launchers? I am not too sure, but I doubt it since they can just add resistance to the adds.

I’d say Final Sting and Self Destruct is somewhat decent at the moment. But if there was just 1 Blue Mage in the party it can be a hindrance if the attack wasn’t timed right, plus they already adjusted it to prevent spell spamming until after 10 minutes even after a wipe the debuff remains. In addition if you raise the Blue Mage he will have the Weakness debuff. Overall, not a good idea if you are mainly focused on DPS-ing and if they are healing or tanking, it would be disastrous to the current pull as they wont have the MP to either diamondback a tank buster or White Wind to heal the group during a area of effect raid wide damage.

[Melichoir]

Removal of spells? No, but adjusting the spells? I can wholly agree, although I would like to point out that missiles won’t work on Alexander Trash in A12S, mainly because they are a type of mobs categorized as Machines, Machines won’t get affected by Missiles or even Launcher, so people will still have to adjust accordingly. I’d like to also point out that even if we have these skills, if Blue Mages were to participate in the current tier of raids, there is not much to add unless you count E7S & E8S (Eden Raids) where they have adds. Will they be affected by missiles or launchers? I am not too sure, but I doubt it since they can just add resistance to the adds.

I’d say Final Sting and Self Destruct is somewhat decent at the moment. But if there was just 1 Blue Mage in the party it can be a hindrance if the attack wasn’t timed right, plus they already adjusted it to prevent spell spamming until after 10 minutes even after a wipe the debuff remains. In addition if you raise the Blue Mage he will have the Weakness debuff. Overall, not a good idea if you are mainly focused on DPS-ing and if they are healing or tanking, it would be disastrous to the current pull as they wont have the MP to either diamondback a tank buster or White Wind to heal the group during a area of effect raid wide damage.

Umm what?

First, Im not only talking about raids, Im talking about general content. Again, 5 minute AVs are a thing. And then since were talking about Savage content - How do you think people are clearing that with full BLU parties? Oh yeah, theyre using final sting towards the end to burst the boss down. You dont give enough credit to how people theory craft and test this stuff to find the most efficient means of doing content. It would be pretty likely that BLU would become a must bring class if left relatively unchanged - something the devs were keen on cutting down on this xpac.

Leaving these skills in runs you into 1 of 2 possibilities: 1) The Skills get nerfed to such a niche point that most players are like "well, whatever, Im not gonna waste my time figuring out what works where.", or 2) Skills remain relatively unaltered and BLU becomes mandatory in current content due to how some of these skills function.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

Umm what?

First, Im not only talking about raids, Im talking about general content. Again, 5 minute AVs are a thing. And then since were talking about Savage content - How do you think people are clearing that with full BLU parties? Oh yeah, theyre using final sting towards the end to burst the boss down. You dont give enough credit to how people theory craft and test this stuff to find the most efficient means of doing content. It would be pretty likely that BLU would become a must bring class if left relatively unchanged - something the devs were keen on cutting down on this xpac.

Leaving these skills in runs you into 1 of 2 possibilities: 1) The Skills get nerfed to such a niche point that most players are like "well, whatever, Im not gonna waste my time figuring out what works where.", or 2) Skills remain relatively unaltered and BLU becomes mandatory in current content due to how some of these skills function.

Looking at general content with the previous suggestion made by sarehptar where certain skills could be unavailable for certain duties, just like level sync. Where in a duty the dungeon will disallow you to use moves that are above the duty’s level cap. The concept of that can be applied to general content for blue mages preventing the use of overpowered or broken spells in normal duty finder.

Thank you for reminding me about theory crafting, as they do it for all classes. Maxing out as much DPS as Possible with every single job, providing the best rotation for DPS and Tanks as well as advice on when to DPS and Heal as a healer. So to say Blue will become mandatory is to say all optimized classes will be mandatory. Meaning it requires Skill and Gear. Not because of a job being better than the others. Even though that has been proven with Summoner. People will always try to find the best way to deal damage to any class no matter what. Optimization is always and has been in the game even without Blue Mage, Look at A Realm Reborn, we had tanks with strength accessories melded with materia and especially crafted melded accessories at that to maximise DPS potential in Coil of Bahamut.

Again, disabling a certain ability in certain duties like how Level Sync disables certain moves depending on your level in the current duty will work to prevent cheesing mechanics as well as preventing the mandatory use of Blue Mages. If players don’t want to figure out how to play as a Blue Mage, there are people and guides to teach them how. If they still refuse to learn, well it is another optional class like how I can say “I prefer to do raids as a caster or range but I don’t like playing as a melee or healer during raids” It is an option, nobody is forcing you to take up Blue Mage. Besides, there may be guides saying Blue Mage is the best option for DPS there will still be players who choose to play something else and they can still outperform other classes. This is gear, skill and rotation. Either you learn to deal out the best DPS you can or bring in low effort DPS.

I noticed that myself when near the end in all raids, Blue Mages just use the final sting combo to efficiently down the boss. Fair enough, but if it was a real raid with an actual party would you think they would do something like that. If that were the case nerfing the potency would be able to fix it but it defeats the purpose of a suicide move. Honestly the same could be applied for Red Mages and Summoners since they both have the best utility in terms of raising people mid fight during raids. Another idea to nerf it is to add another debuff that prevents you from being raised for 30 seconds to 1 minute. Seems like a fair trade off. Dealt a damage worth 1 minute of your DPS in return you cannot be raised until after a minute and after raise you’ll still have the debuff plus weakness. I would like to point out that if this was to be applied, this move would never be used in raids unless near the end or near the enrage timer, considering that if the person cannot be raised and there is a mechanic requiring 8 people, it is a definite wipe.

[Melichoir]

snip

Let me put it this way to simplify - Having 2 BLU in your party with comparable damage to standard DPS that would provide a sustained 5% damage boost for 30 seconds is already likely to be more optimal a party lay out than to bring to 2 DPS. You dont need to make those BLUs DPS, you can have htem as healers. Even if you took them as DPS, since they average the same DPS as other classes so theyre viable, that is already a huge deal, along with some of the other things in their kits. You really gonna tell me that raiders wont look at this and say "Gee, this is better". This was part of the problem in raiding in the past xpacs - certain classes were way more valued, and as a result shut a lot of doors for people playing less optimal classes. This was something the devs went out of their way to change for ShB. Im not even happy with how the Devs corrected this problem, but it is very clear that this is something they want to discourage.

Not to mention you are now having to create exceptions like "Well, you cant bring htis skill, or cant use that skill" to get the class to function in content at a basic level. We can already see that 8 BLUs can clear raid content just fine - why is it youre thinking "Nah, this wont be the case at lvl 80 content". Then, If youre designing them to have restrictions where certain skills arent useable in certain content - where exactly would those skills be applicable that would make sense? I dont use Missile if I were to run Tam Tara unsynced. Id just use Mountain buster or something and insta kill stuff. If Im synced to that content, are you gonna say "Yeah just let people use Missile" and make it where regular DPS cant effectively compete? I can just see it now: "Ugh, we got a party with regular DPS and healers, and not BLUs. Ok, this is gonna be a 15 to 20 minute run."

I get it, you want to play BLU at 80. But the way it is currently set up, simply saying "Nah, minor edits will be enough" is silly. You would literally have to redesign the class to make it viable, and much like the last time this was discussed, that would open up a huge can o worms for balance and keeping the 'spirit of BLU' intact. What you are asking as it currently is is not a feasible direction without a complete overhaul.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

Let me put it this way to simplify - Having 2 BLU in your party with comparable damage to standard DPS that would provide a sustained 5% damage boost for 30 seconds is already likely to be more optimal a party lay out than to bring to 2 DPS. You dont need to make those BLUs DPS, you can have htem as healers. Even if you took them as DPS, since they average the same DPS as other classes so theyre viable, that is already a huge deal, along with some of the other things in their kits. You really gonna tell me that raiders wont look at this and say "Gee, this is better". This was part of the problem in raiding in the past xpacs - certain classes were way more valued, and as a result shut a lot of doors for people playing less optimal classes. This was something the devs went out of their way to change for ShB. Im not even happy with how the Devs corrected this problem, but it is very clear that this is something they want to discourage.

Not to mention you are now having to create exceptions like "Well, you cant bring htis skill, or cant use that skill" to get the class to function in content at a basic level. We can already see that 8 BLUs can clear raid content just fine - why is it youre thinking "Nah, this wont be the case at lvl 80 content". Then, If youre designing them to have restrictions where certain skills arent useable in certain content - where exactly would those skills be applicable that would make sense? I dont use Missile if I were to run Tam Tara unsynced. Id just use Mountain buster or something and insta kill stuff. If Im synced to that content, are you gonna say "Yeah just let people use Missile" and make it where regular DPS cant effectively compete? I can just see it now: "Ugh, we got a party with regular DPS and healers, and not BLUs. Ok, this is gonna be a 15 to 20 minute run."

I get it, you want to play BLU at 80. But the way it is currently set up, simply saying "Nah, minor edits will be enough" is silly. You would literally have to redesign the class to make it viable, and much like the last time this was discussed, that would open up a huge can o worms for balance and keeping the 'spirit of BLU' intact. What you are asking as it currently is is not a feasible direction without a complete overhaul.

Without a doubt raiders would look to that and say that is the best way to deal with the raids, but I highly doubt any sensible static would force two of their members to become Blue Mages just for the sake of progression. They already are discouraging this ‘Meta Party’ but we cannot control what people wanna do. If they want to do it, fine, it is on them. Remember some raider who went and used a third party in Ultimate Coil of Bahamut (UCOB) just to move the markers mid fight? Everyone will cheese, even raiders, everyone wants the world first clear as a record.

The reason why I said it won’t happen in raid content is that if we apply such skills with flat damage in a dungeon or raid setting, things would be broken and people will opt for Blue Mage in normal parties more often than not. If we restrict skill that does flat damage, the fight will be ok, that or increase the chances of the attack missing or increase the cost that if they missed it is more punishable.I didn’t say let them use missile if they are synced I just said if they are going to do roulette or synced content, let certain overpowered skills be restricted. Again let me clarify, I just said restrict the overpowered skills if the Blue Mages are running Duty Finder. So it is fair to all DPS that are running the same dungeon as them. If they wanna power through as their own DPS like our current classes, we have tons of Area of Effect options, even tanks and healers have them. No one is going to think that the dungeon run is going to be long. It is about how well the players can hold out on their own merits, if I was Summoner I do my aoe rotation as soon as possible trying to get to phoenix mode so I can forever cast aoe before the end of the duration. If the dungeon is running slow either it is your fault or someone’s fault for not putting effort into trying to finish the dungeon quickly. Also it is just a dungeon and we are far into the patch that anyone can start mass pulling.

I didn’t just say minor edits will be enough I said I am open to more ideas, if you got a better idea and wanna suggest it, then say so. Between our interactions, we are just having an argument whether or not Blue Mage should be a real job and that is fine. If they wanna keep the spirit of blue, they are doing so now. They just need to balance it. Throughout my journey in Vana'diel as a Blue Mage the skills there are very different from Eorzea, I am willing to go far and say they didn’t nerf it but buffed it up specifically for FFXIV. Does it need a major overhaul? No, but it does need balance and reworking. Overhaul is just mulligan the entire job and restart, they are doing a great job at setting a canvas for us, the players to play on and give feedback. If they brought it to 70 or 80 within this expansion, we may have a clear portrait of what we can do and how we can adapt Blue Mage for future content. It may not be an easy job, but suggesting ideas to the development team is better than arguing weather Blue Mage should be a proper job.

[Melichoir]

Without a doubt raiders would look to that and say that is the best way to deal with the raids, but I highly doubt any sensible static would force two of their members to become Blue Mages just for the sake of progression.

I know youve been into raid, and since you brought up past tiers, you should know full well that this is something statics would do if it meant clearing faster. It would be "Were looking for BLUs for static". And in the High End duty system, it would definitely become a option they would force in. Currently you see it far less simply because of what the devs did balance wise. Youd be throwing that back out the window with BLU if left predominately unaltered.

The reason why I said it won’t happen in raid content is that if we apply such skills with flat damage in a dungeon or raid setting, things would be broken and people will opt for Blue Mage in normal parties more often than not. If we restrict skill that does flat damage, the fight will be ok, that or increase the chances of the attack missing or increase the cost that if they missed it is more punishable.I didn’t say let them use missile if they are synced I just said if they are going to do roulette or synced content, let certain overpowered skills be restricted. Again let me clarify, I just said restrict the overpowered skills if the Blue Mages are running Duty Finder. So it is fair to all DPS that are running the same dungeon as them. If they wanna power through as their own DPS like our current classes, we have tons of Area of Effect options, even tanks and healers have them. No one is going to think that the dungeon run is going to be long. It is about how well the players can hold out on their own merits, if I was Summoner I do my aoe rotation as soon as possible trying to get to phoenix mode so I can forever cast aoe before the end of the duration. If the dungeon is running slow either it is your fault or someone’s fault for not putting effort into trying to finish the dungeon quickly. Also it is just a dungeon and we are far into the patch that anyone can start mass pulling.

I distinctly remember times in HW where people complained about how long it took to clear certain content (dungeons and the like) due to party comp and having certain classes. People optimize for speed - If a BLU party can clear a dungeon in 5-10 minutes, and it takes 20-30 for a standard party, what do you realistically think people are gonna start doing and gravitate towards? Furthermore, talking about DF/PF differences, youve done one of two things - Disincentivized BLUs from running DF, or incentivized people to run PF over DF. This then gets a bit more wonky - What are you to do with dungeon rewards? Far as I know, if you manually queue for a dungeon, as long as its a standard party comp, youll get the base dungeon rewards. Now we will have a system where its more efficient to cap Tomestones by using BLU to cheese the dungeons at max. Unless you say no tome rewards...then why run the dungeons with a BLU? For fun? Lets be realistic. The first thing thatll happen is people will start complaining about how come BLU gets punished in DF and PF in some capacity and how unfair it is.

Beyond that, youre starting to go into the territory of "Well is this really BLU" at that point. Look at a lot of the damage skills. They are virtually the same skill in all but name. They have a different element, but that only matters once you have condensed libra, and even there you only need ...3 IIRC different spell types in a practical sense to maximize CL. So now there's no fun skills cause youve removed them or nerfed them down for balance sake, then what? Looks cool to spam 4 different spells that are identical save appearance? Part of what makes BLU an interesting and unique class isnt just "Well I copy monster skills", but the absurdity of those skills. It is satisfying doing weird shenanigans with BLU like one shotting a boss with Missile in a party, or tinkering around with the skills to see what you can accomplish or get away with. It becomes a lot less interesting once you gut the unique skills and turn it into a version of BLM.

Now Ive seen the BLU in FFXI argument. I also understand that how combat there worked a lot different. Examples that monsters did have actual elemental attributes. In comparison to FFXIV, FFXIV seems to have drastically simplified how combat works. This, along with a lot of other things (How DF works, PF works, Scaling of skills, etc), Minor changes wont cut it. Changing things like White Wind where it's potency based not only guts the feel of how the skill is and it's uniqueness, but ends up meaning that for BLU to function as healer, a lot more changes (and skills) need to be added. Which then turns it into Diet WHM. And that's just one role. You need to take these considerations into all roles that BLU could play - Things like DiamondBack need to be greatly changed in how it operates, as currently it is quite literally tank LB3.

Instead of just changing skills why not try this: Propose how BLU would function in terms of Rotation and Mechanics. It has to be more than just using monster skills itself as the gimmick since that wont really be teh case cause of how nerfed skills would have to be. BLM, RDM, and SMN all have rotations, mechanics, and some kind of system that they operate on that maximize what skills they have (Astral/Umbral, White/Black Magic/ Aether management, etc respectivelly). What would be BLUs version of this while still maintaining the fact that you use monster skills.