Suggesting Ideas for Blue Mage with feedback & Removing Limited Job Status

[Melichoir]

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Let me put it this way to simplify - Having 2 BLU in your party with comparable damage to standard DPS that would provide a sustained 5% damage boost for 30 seconds is already likely to be more optimal a party lay out than to bring to 2 DPS. You dont need to make those BLUs DPS, you can have htem as healers. Even if you took them as DPS, since they average the same DPS as other classes so theyre viable, that is already a huge deal, along with some of the other things in their kits. You really gonna tell me that raiders wont look at this and say "Gee, this is better". This was part of the problem in raiding in the past xpacs - certain classes were way more valued, and as a result shut a lot of doors for people playing less optimal classes. This was something the devs went out of their way to change for ShB. Im not even happy with how the Devs corrected this problem, but it is very clear that this is something they want to discourage.

Not to mention you are now having to create exceptions like "Well, you cant bring htis skill, or cant use that skill" to get the class to function in content at a basic level. We can already see that 8 BLUs can clear raid content just fine - why is it youre thinking "Nah, this wont be the case at lvl 80 content". Then, If youre designing them to have restrictions where certain skills arent useable in certain content - where exactly would those skills be applicable that would make sense? I dont use Missile if I were to run Tam Tara unsynced. Id just use Mountain buster or something and insta kill stuff. If Im synced to that content, are you gonna say "Yeah just let people use Missile" and make it where regular DPS cant effectively compete? I can just see it now: "Ugh, we got a party with regular DPS and healers, and not BLUs. Ok, this is gonna be a 15 to 20 minute run."

I get it, you want to play BLU at 80. But the way it is currently set up, simply saying "Nah, minor edits will be enough" is silly. You would literally have to redesign the class to make it viable, and much like the last time this was discussed, that would open up a huge can o worms for balance and keeping the 'spirit of BLU' intact. What you are asking as it currently is is not a feasible direction without a complete overhaul.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

Let me put it this way to simplify - Having 2 BLU in your party with comparable damage to standard DPS that would provide a sustained 5% damage boost for 30 seconds is already likely to be more optimal a party lay out than to bring to 2 DPS. You dont need to make those BLUs DPS, you can have htem as healers. Even if you took them as DPS, since they average the same DPS as other classes so theyre viable, that is already a huge deal, along with some of the other things in their kits. You really gonna tell me that raiders wont look at this and say "Gee, this is better". This was part of the problem in raiding in the past xpacs - certain classes were way more valued, and as a result shut a lot of doors for people playing less optimal classes. This was something the devs went out of their way to change for ShB. Im not even happy with how the Devs corrected this problem, but it is very clear that this is something they want to discourage.

Not to mention you are now having to create exceptions like "Well, you cant bring htis skill, or cant use that skill" to get the class to function in content at a basic level. We can already see that 8 BLUs can clear raid content just fine - why is it youre thinking "Nah, this wont be the case at lvl 80 content". Then, If youre designing them to have restrictions where certain skills arent useable in certain content - where exactly would those skills be applicable that would make sense? I dont use Missile if I were to run Tam Tara unsynced. Id just use Mountain buster or something and insta kill stuff. If Im synced to that content, are you gonna say "Yeah just let people use Missile" and make it where regular DPS cant effectively compete? I can just see it now: "Ugh, we got a party with regular DPS and healers, and not BLUs. Ok, this is gonna be a 15 to 20 minute run."

I get it, you want to play BLU at 80. But the way it is currently set up, simply saying "Nah, minor edits will be enough" is silly. You would literally have to redesign the class to make it viable, and much like the last time this was discussed, that would open up a huge can o worms for balance and keeping the 'spirit of BLU' intact. What you are asking as it currently is is not a feasible direction without a complete overhaul.

Without a doubt raiders would look to that and say that is the best way to deal with the raids, but I highly doubt any sensible static would force two of their members to become Blue Mages just for the sake of progression. They already are discouraging this ‘Meta Party’ but we cannot control what people wanna do. If they want to do it, fine, it is on them. Remember some raider who went and used a third party in Ultimate Coil of Bahamut (UCOB) just to move the markers mid fight? Everyone will cheese, even raiders, everyone wants the world first clear as a record.

The reason why I said it won’t happen in raid content is that if we apply such skills with flat damage in a dungeon or raid setting, things would be broken and people will opt for Blue Mage in normal parties more often than not. If we restrict skill that does flat damage, the fight will be ok, that or increase the chances of the attack missing or increase the cost that if they missed it is more punishable.I didn’t say let them use missile if they are synced I just said if they are going to do roulette or synced content, let certain overpowered skills be restricted. Again let me clarify, I just said restrict the overpowered skills if the Blue Mages are running Duty Finder. So it is fair to all DPS that are running the same dungeon as them. If they wanna power through as their own DPS like our current classes, we have tons of Area of Effect options, even tanks and healers have them. No one is going to think that the dungeon run is going to be long. It is about how well the players can hold out on their own merits, if I was Summoner I do my aoe rotation as soon as possible trying to get to phoenix mode so I can forever cast aoe before the end of the duration. If the dungeon is running slow either it is your fault or someone’s fault for not putting effort into trying to finish the dungeon quickly. Also it is just a dungeon and we are far into the patch that anyone can start mass pulling.

I didn’t just say minor edits will be enough I said I am open to more ideas, if you got a better idea and wanna suggest it, then say so. Between our interactions, we are just having an argument whether or not Blue Mage should be a real job and that is fine. If they wanna keep the spirit of blue, they are doing so now. They just need to balance it. Throughout my journey in Vana'diel as a Blue Mage the skills there are very different from Eorzea, I am willing to go far and say they didn’t nerf it but buffed it up specifically for FFXIV. Does it need a major overhaul? No, but it does need balance and reworking. Overhaul is just mulligan the entire job and restart, they are doing a great job at setting a canvas for us, the players to play on and give feedback. If they brought it to 70 or 80 within this expansion, we may have a clear portrait of what we can do and how we can adapt Blue Mage for future content. It may not be an easy job, but suggesting ideas to the development team is better than arguing weather Blue Mage should be a proper job.

[Melichoir]

Without a doubt raiders would look to that and say that is the best way to deal with the raids, but I highly doubt any sensible static would force two of their members to become Blue Mages just for the sake of progression.

I know youve been into raid, and since you brought up past tiers, you should know full well that this is something statics would do if it meant clearing faster. It would be "Were looking for BLUs for static". And in the High End duty system, it would definitely become a option they would force in. Currently you see it far less simply because of what the devs did balance wise. Youd be throwing that back out the window with BLU if left predominately unaltered.

The reason why I said it won’t happen in raid content is that if we apply such skills with flat damage in a dungeon or raid setting, things would be broken and people will opt for Blue Mage in normal parties more often than not. If we restrict skill that does flat damage, the fight will be ok, that or increase the chances of the attack missing or increase the cost that if they missed it is more punishable.I didn’t say let them use missile if they are synced I just said if they are going to do roulette or synced content, let certain overpowered skills be restricted. Again let me clarify, I just said restrict the overpowered skills if the Blue Mages are running Duty Finder. So it is fair to all DPS that are running the same dungeon as them. If they wanna power through as their own DPS like our current classes, we have tons of Area of Effect options, even tanks and healers have them. No one is going to think that the dungeon run is going to be long. It is about how well the players can hold out on their own merits, if I was Summoner I do my aoe rotation as soon as possible trying to get to phoenix mode so I can forever cast aoe before the end of the duration. If the dungeon is running slow either it is your fault or someone’s fault for not putting effort into trying to finish the dungeon quickly. Also it is just a dungeon and we are far into the patch that anyone can start mass pulling.

I distinctly remember times in HW where people complained about how long it took to clear certain content (dungeons and the like) due to party comp and having certain classes. People optimize for speed - If a BLU party can clear a dungeon in 5-10 minutes, and it takes 20-30 for a standard party, what do you realistically think people are gonna start doing and gravitate towards? Furthermore, talking about DF/PF differences, youve done one of two things - Disincentivized BLUs from running DF, or incentivized people to run PF over DF. This then gets a bit more wonky - What are you to do with dungeon rewards? Far as I know, if you manually queue for a dungeon, as long as its a standard party comp, youll get the base dungeon rewards. Now we will have a system where its more efficient to cap Tomestones by using BLU to cheese the dungeons at max. Unless you say no tome rewards...then why run the dungeons with a BLU? For fun? Lets be realistic. The first thing thatll happen is people will start complaining about how come BLU gets punished in DF and PF in some capacity and how unfair it is.

Beyond that, youre starting to go into the territory of "Well is this really BLU" at that point. Look at a lot of the damage skills. They are virtually the same skill in all but name. They have a different element, but that only matters once you have condensed libra, and even there you only need ...3 IIRC different spell types in a practical sense to maximize CL. So now there's no fun skills cause youve removed them or nerfed them down for balance sake, then what? Looks cool to spam 4 different spells that are identical save appearance? Part of what makes BLU an interesting and unique class isnt just "Well I copy monster skills", but the absurdity of those skills. It is satisfying doing weird shenanigans with BLU like one shotting a boss with Missile in a party, or tinkering around with the skills to see what you can accomplish or get away with. It becomes a lot less interesting once you gut the unique skills and turn it into a version of BLM.

Now Ive seen the BLU in FFXI argument. I also understand that how combat there worked a lot different. Examples that monsters did have actual elemental attributes. In comparison to FFXIV, FFXIV seems to have drastically simplified how combat works. This, along with a lot of other things (How DF works, PF works, Scaling of skills, etc), Minor changes wont cut it. Changing things like White Wind where it's potency based not only guts the feel of how the skill is and it's uniqueness, but ends up meaning that for BLU to function as healer, a lot more changes (and skills) need to be added. Which then turns it into Diet WHM. And that's just one role. You need to take these considerations into all roles that BLU could play - Things like DiamondBack need to be greatly changed in how it operates, as currently it is quite literally tank LB3.

Instead of just changing skills why not try this: Propose how BLU would function in terms of Rotation and Mechanics. It has to be more than just using monster skills itself as the gimmick since that wont really be teh case cause of how nerfed skills would have to be. BLM, RDM, and SMN all have rotations, mechanics, and some kind of system that they operate on that maximize what skills they have (Astral/Umbral, White/Black Magic/ Aether management, etc respectivelly). What would be BLUs version of this while still maintaining the fact that you use monster skills.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

I know youve been into raid, and since you brought up past tiers, you should know full well that this is something statics would do if it meant clearing faster. It would be "Were looking for BLUs for static". And in the High End duty system, it would definitely become a option they would force in. Currently you see it far less simply because of what the devs did balance wise. Youd be throwing that back out the window with BLU if left predominately unaltered.

I distinctly remember times in HW where people complained about how long it took to clear certain content (dungeons and the like) due to party comp and having certain classes. People optimize for speed - If a BLU party can clear a dungeon in 5-10 minutes, and it takes 20-30 for a standard party, what do you realistically think people are gonna start doing and gravitate towards? Furthermore, talking about DF/PF differences, youve done one of two things - Disincentivized BLUs from running DF, or incentivized people to run PF over DF. This then gets a bit more wonky - What are you to do with dungeon rewards? Far as I know, if you manually queue for a dungeon, as long as its a standard party comp, youll get the base dungeon rewards. Now we will have a system where its more efficient to cap Tomestones by using BLU to cheese the dungeons at max. Unless you say no tome rewards...then why run the dungeons with a BLU? For fun? Lets be realistic. The first thing thatll happen is people will start complaining about how come BLU gets punished in DF and PF in some capacity and how unfair it is.

Beyond that, youre starting to go into the territory of "Well is this really BLU" at that point. Look at a lot of the damage skills. They are virtually the same skill in all but name. They have a different element, but that only matters once you have condensed libra, and even there you only need ...3 IIRC different spell types in a practical sense to maximize CL. So now there's no fun skills cause youve removed them or nerfed them down for balance sake, then what? Looks cool to spam 4 different spells that are identical save appearance? Part of what makes BLU an interesting and unique class isnt just "Well I copy monster skills", but the absurdity of those skills. It is satisfying doing weird shenanigans with BLU like one shotting a boss with Missile in a party, or tinkering around with the skills to see what you can accomplish or get away with. It becomes a lot less interesting once you gut the unique skills and turn it into a version of BLM.

Now Ive seen the BLU in FFXI argument. I also understand that how combat there worked a lot different. Examples that monsters did have actual elemental attributes. In comparison to FFXIV, FFXIV seems to have drastically simplified how combat works. This, along with a lot of other things (How DF works, PF works, Scaling of skills, etc), Minor changes wont cut it. Changing things like White Wind where it's potency based not only guts the feel of how the skill is and it's uniqueness, but ends up meaning that for BLU to function as healer, a lot more changes (and skills) need to be added. Which then turns it into Diet WHM. And that's just one role. You need to take these considerations into all roles that BLU could play - Things like DiamondBack need to be greatly changed in how it operates, as currently it is quite literally tank LB3.

Instead of just changing skills why not try this: Propose how BLU would function in terms of Rotation and Mechanics. It has to be more than just using monster skills itself as the gimmick since that wont really be teh case cause of how nerfed skills would have to be. BLM, RDM, and SMN all have rotations, mechanics, and some kind of system that they operate on that maximize what skills they have (Astral/Umbral, White/Black Magic/ Aether management, etc respectivelly). What would be BLUs version of this while still maintaining the fact that you use monster skills.

Yes, it would be what some static would do. Not all, like I said time and again we cannot control how they wanna do things. Yeah it’ll be a Heavensward savage raid all over again. But you’re looking at it without a job gauge to control its power. At this point in time there is nothing stopping players playing blue to use powerful skills. Hence why I suggested a concept of build a job gauge for it.

Yeah we have players who want to clear dungeons quickly, so to prevent that it would either better up the rewards in Duty roulette but even then DPS queues will be filled with all blue mages. No matter what you do there will always be the group of people having the mindset of let's clear this dungeon over with XXXX Class. Though I like to address again that Blue Mage doesn’t have a job gauge as of now. So we are still testing the waters on how it still can be implemented.

Well the other compromise of not nerfing would be to outright restrict it from Duty Finder so all DPS have a chance to pull their weight in the dungeon and people will stop complaining.

If changes to the skill isn’t necessary then we could do what I have suggested in the document, if we wanna allow the use of monster skills as well as having a job gauge or rotation, then the best we can look at is how Blue Mage worked in FFXI. They fought with swords or clubs, but mainly swords for physical damage dealers and clubs for high magic potency. If we were to put it in a rotation, allow blue mage to have a weapon skill, they’ll have to use a melee weapon skill or physical spell first before they do a magic combo. If we are still gonna stick with a cane then it is plausible to say we can have a weapon skill using a cane. If we wanted to use something like Ifrit’s eruption then we have to use certain skill correlating to Ifrit’s element so Fire Angon plus Flamethrower which then allow use to Ifrit’s eruption. That is putting things simply as an example, if Blue mage have a weapon skill then we would have a job gauge that allows people to use more variety of combo with weapon skill and spells.

Red Mage have their own rotation in which they do a full burst attack with their melee combo first before using Verholy or Verflare and then into Scorch. Why not the exact opposite for Blue Mage. This is a direct inspiration in which I also mention within my document. In FFXI they would go like this, weapon skill to Chain Affinity to physical blue magic to Affinity Burst (Happens immediately after a successful Chain Affinity Combo) and then Magical Affinity finishing off with another blue spell but elemental leading into a powerful magical burst. Yoshida isn’t wrong when he said Blue Mage Can do solo content especially in FFXI, but this is FFXIV where it is very different. We do not have skill chain instead we have rotations. If blue were to have a rotation it’ll be the reverse of a Red Mage. Where melee is the starter or Physical Blue Mage Spells and then a magical combo to follow it up.

With the gauge that has been designed for primals bar a Blue Mage can build up points using certain combos and when enough they can do a same elemental combo allowing them to do primal moves. It is somewhat like Unbridled Learning where a blue mage in FFXI has certain access to certain spells they learned, meaning they cannot cast a specific blue mage spell unless Unbridled Learning has been activated. Kinda like the job gauge I have presented, It can even be renamed Unbridled learning gauge. That would be the mechanic to try and do as many combos to fill their bar to the maximum to unlock certain spells they have equipped so they can use it and then finally reset the gauge.

Gate spells that are learned from the strongest foes that aren’t common like the primals or raid bosses and to unlock them in combat you have to fill up that gauge with your setup of your spells and combos. Learn to make your rotation as a Blue Mage cause with a variety of monster spells, you can make as many combos as you want. Making it a unique customizable job. Just somewhat similar to FFXI’s Blue Mage. Staying true to the idea of Blue Mage being a mage that uses monster skills with them having either having a revamp the type of weapons they can have so they can have a weapon skill. Maybe like a chain whip or a scimitar. The choice of it being a cane is somewhat unorthodox but I can understand because in FFXI Blue Mages can use clubs which are mainly meant for magical attack potency rather than melee. It doesn’t need to be a weapon skill they can combo it from a monster’s physical skill before going into a magic combo.

[Melichoir]

Yes, it would be what some static would do. Not all, like I said time and again we cannot control how they wanna do things. Yeah it’ll be a Heavensward savage raid all over again. But you’re looking at it without a job gauge to control its power. At this point in time there is nothing stopping players playing blue to use powerful skills. Hence why I suggested a concept of build a job gauge for it.

Most statics would do this, because this has been the trend we've seen already in SB and HW.

Yeah we have players who want to clear dungeons quickly, so to prevent that it would either better up the rewards in Duty roulette but even then DPS queues will be filled with all blue mages. No matter what you do there will always be the group of people having the mindset of let's clear this dungeon over with XXXX Class. Though I like to address again that Blue Mage doesn’t have a job gauge as of now. So we are still testing the waters on how it still can be implemented.

Most players want this. I run tank predominately and of the 2000+ dungeon/trial content, I can only think of a small handful of times when party members wanted to take time doing it. The most common thing is "Pull big and pull hard to get this done." and if I dont do it, someone in party will insist. So player tendency is generally get things done fast. BLUs with their skill sets will be where thats at. It seems you understand that BLU is gonna cause problems with how DF/PF work given their skill sets.

Well the other compromise of not nerfing would be to outright restrict it from Duty Finder so all DPS have a chance to pull their weight in the dungeon and people will stop complaining.

This would probably be the best direction to go to allow BLU have more content access, but Im sure you would agree that the immediate knee jerk reaction would be "It's not really a full class/BLU is being punished". It undermines what youre trying to do. It will still be limited.

If changes to the skill isn’t necessary then we could do what I have suggested in the document, if we wanna allow the use of monster skills as well as having a job gauge or rotation, then the best we can look at is how Blue Mage worked in FFXI.....If blue were to have a rotation it’ll be the reverse of a Red Mage. Where melee is the starter or Physical Blue Mage Spells and then a magical combo to follow it up.

Yes, this would be semi functional, where youd use a rotation to build up resources to use BLU skills. My immediate thought though is this seems a bit to thematically similar to RDM, even if its inversed. RMD Does the hybrid caster/melee thing, SMN has pets, and BLM is glass cannon magic man. Having blue use both melee/caster would kind of overlap with RDM in a thematic sense. This wouldnt be inherently bad but it would raise some quizzical eyebrows. The only issue then is role selection issues. How would this function for healer particularly.

Gate spells that are learned from the strongest foes that aren’t common like the primals or raid bosses and to unlock them in combat you have to fill up that gauge with your setup of your spells and combos. Learn to make your rotation as a Blue Mage cause with a variety of monster spells, you can make as many combos as you want. Making it a unique customizable job. Just somewhat similar to FFXI’s Blue Mage. Staying true to the idea of Blue Mage being a mage that uses monster skills with them having either having a revamp the type of weapons they can have so they can have a weapon skill. Maybe like a chain whip or a scimitar. The choice of it being a cane is somewhat unorthodox but I can understand because in FFXI Blue Mages can use clubs which are mainly meant for magical attack potency rather than melee. It doesn’t need to be a weapon skill they can combo it from a monster’s physical skill before going into a magic combo.

The issues then, since were talking about learned skills in a DF or PF environment, comes down a few things. For one, how many skills do you need to bring a BLU into a dungeon? You would have to enforce a minimum. Then it comes down to which skills can and cant be learned/used. For example, technically you can learn about any skill currently as long as you meet the basics of seeing the enemy die and tagging it and not being dead. Not impossible, but you could get mountain buster at lvl 10 with an undersized party. So having a BLU come into a low level dungeon via DF but having Mountain Buster (or similar) is a balance issue. Not game breaking, but annoying enough. The only current solution I can see that is viable is skills have a gauge cost, and the stronger skills eat more of the gauge. For example, you could learn Mountain buster at lvl 1, but if it takes 60 energy, and your gauge has a max of 30 at that level, there is no point in learning it other than getting it out of the way. In synced content, gauge would sync down to appropriate level to prevent certain skills. As for skills needed, a tier system would need to be implemented - you need 15 skills to queue for dungeons between lvl 15-20. 20 Skills for 20-30, 25 for 30-40...etc. This way you need a bare minimum of abilities so you cant go in without skills.

Beyond that youd need to set up skill into 4 categories: Defense(Tank), Restoration(Heals), Offense(DPS), and Neutral (all aspects). Remove aetherial mimicry from the game and provide stances instead that you learn as you level of. Each stance grants a bonus that would operate on +5% more damage, or +10% Defense/HP, etc, but in activating these stances, You lose access to all off categories save the neutral aspected stuff which can be used universally. If you do decide not to use any stance, you have access to the full kit but wont be able to use DF cause you cant fulfill a role.

The final thing still ends up being that certain skills are just that detrimentally strong that they would have to be nerfed. I gave it thought regarding some of this, and the thing that would have to be done to mitigate against this would be debuff the boss twice, so that lets say you use Off Guard, the boss gets a buff or bonus that prevents the reapplication of it for 60 seconds. It isnt perfect but that would help fix atleast one spell. Beyond that, youd still have to figure out how final sting works among other things (create special resistances to it possibly where the boss actively mitigates against these kind of attacks as to make them not worth while overall, or make it a specialized execute that is only useable below 5% hp or something). The other way is just redesigning how final sting operates, where rather than killing you, it just reduces HP to 1 and has a looooong CD on it. But these are two examples that would need to be addressed, and if you want BLU to flex and be any role, there is a ton of work that needs to be done in regards to how tank and healer roles are.

And while the suggestions I provided might work, I want to remind you that these kind of things would require rebuilding the class from the ground up. This isnt something I think the Devs are interested in doing.

[SpiralMask]

The issues then, since were talking about learned skills in a DF or PF environment, comes down a few things. For one, how many skills do you need to bring a BLU into a dungeon? You would have to enforce a minimum. Then it comes down to which skills can and cant be learned/used. For example, technically you can learn about any skill currently as long as you meet the basics of seeing the enemy die and tagging it and not being dead. Not impossible, but you could get mountain buster at lvl 10 with an undersized party. So having a BLU come into a low level dungeon via DF but having Mountain Buster (or similar) is a balance issue. Not game breaking, but annoying enough.

just wanna point out that dancers get a quick 1k potency aoe on a short cooldown staggeringly early and that content at those levels is absolutely unprepared for already, but the guage and having skills spend based on their power is a great idea for both the resource-management and power-balance side.

and the idea for a timed enemy buff preventing status re-application is a much more forgiving way to handle the current resistances system and their debuff list (you get three uses of that status effect and then it's a dead skill on your hotbar the rest of the fight). if BLU statuses were able to bypass base resistance but only on a timer that'd be a nice QoL--a quick and dirty alternative might be something like SCH's emergency tactics, being a ~20s cooldown that would let your next spell bypass enemy resistances (but not immunity).

[ReiMakoto]

just wanna point out that dancers get a quick 1k potency aoe on a short cooldown staggeringly early and that content at those levels is absolutely unprepared for already, but the guage and having skills spend based on their power is a great idea for both the resource-management and power-balance side.

^ This, all older content is broken due to the power creep of newer jobs. DNC is a blender at lower levels because it has both standard step, and very powerful aoe combo from level 15. When stormblood launched rdm had Verthunder/aero at level 15 also with the same strength they had at level 70. This can be seen across all jobs, theres a reason why arr content is stomped so easily these days and most players have never seen even half of the mechanics these dungeons have to offer. Ultimately as well, BLU could have level requirements attached to their spells when in duty finder content, so even if learned earlier you cant use the spell if youre sync'd below a certain level, as most spells have a dungeon/trial source as well as an overworld, the level requirement for the spell could be just made to be the lowest level mob that can cast that spell as a quick and dirty blanket fix (you'd still have eruption at low level, but also again, see dancer)

[TeraTyrantShadic]

This would probably be the best direction to go to allow BLU have more content access, but Im sure you would agree that the immediate knee jerk reaction would be "It's not really a full class/BLU is being punished". It undermines what youre trying to do. It will still be limited.

To be honest, I doubt that would be the reaction. Let's be honest and say we redesign how the spells works and they are work at certain levels, similar like unlocking a skill at every level. Even in FFXI when you learn a skill from a mob, you have to meet the level requirement to actually use it. So, that would be fair. But if its restriction of overpowered spells, it is not punishing it is called giving every DPS a chance to shine rather than playing favorites and say that Blue Mage is the optimal DPS for everything. Sure some will complain, but we can't please everybody. Personally I am ok with that, at least we are on the same playing field with the other DPS allowing them to learn their class at the early stages of leveling.

Yes, this would be semi functional, where youd use a rotation to build up resources to use BLU skills. My immediate thought though is this seems a bit to thematically similar to RDM, even if its inversed. RMD Does the hybrid caster/melee thing, SMN has pets, and BLM is glass cannon magic man. Having blue use both melee/caster would kind of overlap with RDM in a thematic sense. This wouldnt be inherently bad but it would raise some quizzical eyebrows. The only issue then is role selection issues. How would this function for healer particularly.

Similar to Red Mage job gauge is a bit of a stretch, Red Mages have 2 bars and perhaps with consequences of not balancing the gauge. Red Mage is about balancing the 2 bar Black and White Magic. If one is too much the other, then it'll be harder to earn the opposite magic type which in turn punishes your DPS since you need to do your melee combo. The concept I suggested in my document is that of a combo and build up without 2 bars and having to create a combo in order to use certain skills. It is not the definitive solution but a suggestion and very different to that of a Red Mage's Job Gauge.

The issues then, since were talking about learned skills in a DF or PF environment, comes down a few things. For one, how many skills do you need to bring a BLU into a dungeon? You would have to enforce a minimum. Then it comes down to which skills can and cant be learned/used. For example, technically you can learn about any skill currently as long as you meet the basics of seeing the enemy die and tagging it and not being dead. Not impossible, but you could get mountain buster at lvl 10 with an undersized party. So having a BLU come into a low level dungeon via DF but having Mountain Buster (or similar) is a balance issue. Not game breaking, but annoying enough. The only current solution I can see that is viable is skills have a gauge cost, and the stronger skills eat more of the gauge. For example, you could learn Mountain buster at lvl 1, but if it takes 60 energy, and your gauge has a max of 30 at that level, there is no point in learning it other than getting it out of the way. In synced content, gauge would sync down to appropriate level to prevent certain skills. As for skills needed, a tier system would need to be implemented - you need 15 skills to queue for dungeons between lvl 15-20. 20 Skills for 20-30, 25 for 30-40...etc. This way you need a bare minimum of abilities so you cant go in without skills.

Which is why I suggested at the start of the Blue Mage story line give them a set of spells to work with. So that they can start running dungeons, that way it will be easier for Blue Mages to learn spells that are only available through Duty Finder.

Being honest here, going by levels. At best if they really want to learn an AoE as soon as possible, starting from level 15, they have to head to Tam-Tara Deepcroft and easily learn Mind Blast their first AoE spell, If its gonna be annoying then you could say the same for Range and Caster, they learn AoE Spells as early as Level 12 for Black mage (Blizzard II); Level 10 for Summoner (Egi Assault I, Level 10 with Emerald Carbuncle); Level 15/18 with Red Mage (Scatter is too long but Verthunder II is not). All of these have a cast time except for Summoner where its more of an order than a spell. Granted Mind Blast has a faster cast time than than the other casters, while range it is instantly. I would also like to point out that some of their AoE still have the the first enemy will take 100% of the damage while the rest suffer 50%. So I doubt it will be annoying to say the least. But Again, if we did the level sync and place every spell under a level requirement, there is fair chance for all caster and range to AoE the mobs down fast.

However what you suggested for Job Gauge increase the max points per 10 level is a great way to balance the job out early in the levels.

Beyond that youd need to set up skill into 4 categories: Defense(Tank), Restoration(Heals), Offense(DPS), and Neutral (all aspects). Remove aetherial mimicry from the game and provide stances instead that you learn as you level of. Each stance grants a bonus that would operate on +5% more damage, or +10% Defense/HP, etc, but in activating these stances, You lose access to all off categories save the neutral aspected stuff which can be used universally. If you do decide not to use any stance, you have access to the full kit but wont be able to use DF cause you cant fulfill a role.

So basically let Blue Mages have 3 Separate leveling system for each role by learning spells that is tailored to a certain role. This may sound like a feasible idea and may just work, I did have a discussion of such an idea but omitted it at first. But since you brought it up it may work.

The final thing still ends up being that certain skills are just that detrimentally strong that they would have to be nerfed. I gave it thought regarding some of this, and the thing that would have to be done to mitigate against this would be debuff the boss twice, so that lets say you use Off Guard, the boss gets a buff or bonus that prevents the reapplication of it for 60 seconds. It isnt perfect but that would help fix atleast one spell. Beyond that, youd still have to figure out how final sting works among other things (create special resistances to it possibly where the boss actively mitigates against these kind of attacks as to make them not worth while overall, or make it a specialized execute that is only useable below 5% hp or something). The other way is just redesigning how final sting operates, where rather than killing you, it just reduces HP to 1 and has a looooong CD on it. But these are two examples that would need to be addressed, and if you want BLU to flex and be any role, there is a ton of work that needs to be done in regards to how tank and healer roles are.

Another great suggesstion, and I believe FFXI already have the solution for that, when a Blue Mage uses Self Destruct or Final Sting (Its in the game), They will gain weakness, they will be alive but they will have weakness. If we adapt it to FFXIV's system we could say they gain the debuff Brink of Death.

And while the suggestions I provided might work, I want to remind you that these kind of things would require rebuilding the class from the ground up. This isnt something I think the Devs are interested in doing.

That is fine, suggestion like these are there to help the developers to build their. In providing feedback and suggestion the developers would have an understanding as to what the player base or community wants. Those who are vocal in suggesting ideas, bringing ideas on how to make it balance or make it fun can be a great idea. Arguments and Shouting won't yield anything but cooperating, debating and suggesting can lead to a possibility that Blue Mage may be the next Job we see in the next expansion.

We are not demanding a rebuild of a class, we are just suggesting ideas that can help the developers fully shape their vision for Blue Mage as a proper Job than a side content so that one day Blue Mages and future 'limited' jobs (Hopefully not Limited but a Proper Release). Will have a much easier time Learning Spells (Blue Mage), Taming Beasts (Beast Master) & Getting Puppet Parts (Puppet Master) if content is going to be obtained in dungeons and we can queue with the other Jobs normally in Duty Finder.

So regardless weather you want Blue Mage as a real Job, I'd say its better if everyone and tried to bring up some constructive suggestions and criticism than saying "Blue Mage is too OP! Don't bring it in it'll ruin the game." That is barely helping anyone, this part of the post is address to everyone so we can all try our best to lead Blue Mage to a brighter future alongside with other jobs being planned to be Limited Jobs so we don't need to have the tag and let every job (except DoH/L They craft and gather not battle) participate in the fun we did have queuing in duty finder and enjoying content at their own pace.

[Melichoir]

it doesnt really matter how 1k potency varies between classes (likely due to weapon base damage, stat scaling, and backend calculations on the skills themselves), i'm talking about the existing case of a class having ready access to something that absolutely crushes content not being out of the norm at this point, so BLU wouldn't exactly be some weird extreme outlier. i do still agree that the gauge is a solid idea to limit some of the more crazy stuff

It does, cause youre citing potency.

Beyond that, yes, the newer classes tend to be disproportionately stronger than legacy classes, but no where in the ballpark how BLU would work on 1:1 translation. There is no skill in the game outside of BLU skills which can wipe out 50% of tankier monsters HP in 1-2 hits in dungeons when synced. There is "Oh yeah, DNC is somewhat stronger than the other classes," and "BLU just be destroying things." Gets worse when you understand HP snapshotting on things like Missile and how two BLUs can literally kill the tankier monsters in 2 seconds.

To be honest, I doubt that would be the reaction. Let's be honest ....DPS allowing them to learn their class at the early stages of leveling.

Youve got better faith in the player base, but seeing how the arguments and thought processes have gone in the past threads as well as tangentely related topics, the immediate response would be "TY SE! We love you"...and then 3 weeks later "SE why you still punishing BLU! Why these exceptions! No other class has this issue at 'x' level" and thatll turn into threads such as this where "What can we do to unlock the class and make it a full class." You read Reddit and OFs enough, you see a general trend in player rationality when it comes to balance on MMOs.

Similar to Red Mage job gauge is a bit of a stretch.... very different to that of a Red Mage's Job Gauge.

I wasnt talking about the mechanics side of it, but more of the theme side - I.E a caster who also engages in melee combat. Theme wise you can boil down the 3 casters (blue aside) to Basic B Wizard - Cast stuff and kill, Summoner is "I use pets to attack for me" (granted that due to balance they seem to be moving away from this and the emphasis to use pets - something I think is a mistake but I digress), and RDM is a hybrid Caster/Melee with more emphasis on the caster side.

They have their own theme of what they do. What I was saying in similarities is having BLU do physical stuff overlaps with what RDM does, though maybe inverted in that the focus is heavier on phys with bursts on magic. But then its a lot less a caster at that point and a hybrid melee dps.

Being honest here, going by levels. At best if they really want to learn an AoE as soon as possible....However what you suggested for Job Gauge increase the max points per 10 level is a great way to balance the job out early in the levels.

Youd have to tweak potency values and give them access to a basic AoE early that has similar output as other casters. The point would be preventing BLU from using powerful skills in a low level dungeon that they theoretically shouldnt have access too. You already see this as is with other classes when syncing to level, so youd have to create a similar system for BLU.

So basically let Blue Mages have 3 Separate leveling system for each role by learning spells that is tailored to a certain role. This may sound like a feasible idea and may just work, I did have a discussion of such an idea but omitted it at first. But since you brought it up it may work.

I wouldnt call it separate leveling, so much as youd just have different stances that limit what skills you use in each stance for added benefits of having the stance on (tank would be threat gen and def/hp, DPS greater DPS values, Healing improved healing output for spells for example). This would allow queuing as a specific role and remove issues where you wouldnt want melee or healers to have a TANK LB3 skill as an example. The coding issue would essentially be preventing you from removing stances on BLU when in dungeons or instances. On the flip side, if you want to not have a stance and have your full kit, that option is available to you in open world content and in unsynced content. So you have the ability to use all of BLUs skills to do cheese runs if you want - just not in content that is synced.

Another great suggesstion, and I believe FFXI already have the solution for that, when a Blue Mage uses Self Destruct or Final Sting (Its in the game), They will gain weakness, they will be alive but they will have weakness. If we adapt it to FFXIV's system we could say they gain the debuff Brink of Death.

I would want to avoid this because of it being a balance issue. The balance side is giving people the ability to address using a high risk ability by using other kits or abilities to work with it. If you tack weakness onto it, there is no real eason to use the skill, even as an execute because weakness stacks and persists through death unless its a complete wipe. Giving it a long CD + reducing HP to one would allow good healers to plan for the attack use in a fight and burst heal you back up, while at the same time discouraging an entire party from doing it due to how unlikely all people are able to heal the entire thing effectively with risks from raid busters.

That is fine, suggestion like these are there to help the developers to build their....... content at their own pace.

Im still in the position that it doesnt have to be a full class and in doing so would require rebuilding it. The problem ends up being the same no matter how you cut it - Either the changes will be to minimal and BLU will end up being a must bring, or theyll be to drastic and result in needing to rebuild how the class operates. Much of what I suggested would work (on paper atleast from a basic stand point) and fixes a ton of potential power issues but in doing so would require a lot of reworking and rebuilding how BLU works. The other route of doing as little as possible and making some minor changes to skills and leaving it as is just doesnt work in FFXIVs end game environment unless you are gonna throw out balance or some of the philosophies that the devs are currently pushing (reducing the meta aspect of raiding, for example.)