General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Liam_Harper]

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

No, a healer has to be efficiently using their toolkit, or they're a "bad" healer.

That means constantly casting, using either dps or the best healing ability for the situation, without wasting mana on unnecessary overheals or having downtime. Or at the very least attempting to get this mostly right. You don't need high percentile damage, just at least try to push what you can in low-healing situations. If you have to spam heal a paper tank to keep them alive and can't weave dps, that's fine too, you're using your toolkit efficiently for the given situation.

If Healer A can keep the entire party alive and weave in decent dps, they're far more valuable to the group than Healer B who can only keep the entire party alive. It's that simple really.

And yes, you don't "need" healer dps in casual content but that still means you're a bad player for neglecting it. You're only playing a fraction of the optimal, like a dps doing less than half the average for a player of their ilv.

[Sylve]

No, a healer has to be efficiently using their toolkit, or they're a "bad" healer.

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.

Tossing a Glare or Malefic while everyone is full and no healing is required should be encouraged. The problem is the mentality from the general community that every GCD ever has to be a DPS spell otherwise you're "holding the team back". New Healers try to do that, fail miserably, get yelled at and quit Healing. Or staunchly refuse to toss a Glare out because theyve only had bad experiences trying in the past.

I would also like to point out that I've had dungeon runs be faster with a non-DPS Healer compared to subsequent runs where the Healer is near matching the Tank on DPS.
Healer DPS is negligible compared to whether or not the DPS are playing to the best of their ability.
They've said on multiple occasions that Healer dps isn't factored into clear requirements. I'm not even sure if they've ever confirmed outright that Savage requires Healers to DPS.

What's truly hilarious to me is that the Community complains that Healing is too easy and they spend so much time DPSing, yet any time a suggestion is made that would tune up the Healing requirement so that we spend more GCDs on Healing than DPS, it becomes "too stressful to healers" or they don't want to cast Cures instead of Glares.
Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK.

[Mansion]

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.
[...]
Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK

In analogy to "healers should DPS", that would be "DPS need to minimize damage taken" with Bloodbath, Second Wind, mitigation and that kind of stuff. It's just about being as efficient as you can doing extras out of your role. Healers have the most downtime of the three roles once they have reached what's expected from them (keeping people alive when you can).

I'm a pro DPS-healer, and I won't shout at a healer that occasionally casts a Cure / Benefic / Physic. It happens, it's part of how you adapt to a random situation. But sitting here doing nothing because there is no healing required, I do think that's being a dead-weight to the team, just like a DPS that does not know its rotation, or anyone not knowing basic fight mechanics 80 levels in the game.

In the end, in casual content there's no argument to have. A dungeon will remain a brain dead instance for everyone. But if healers had more interesting systems for their downtime (be it DPS, buff or else), it would make "pro" healers happier, and casual healers would not be pressured into it during a dungeon.

[Sylve]

I do think that's being a dead-weight to the team

And this right here is what disgusts me about the whole argument. Dead weight is someone who contributes nothing to the success of the run. AKA, someone off AFK in a corner.

Take a Healer who never casts damage spells. Run a dungeon. You finished it, right? With no complications? Right.
Now take a Healer who never casts a Heal. Run the dungeon. How far did you get? Not very far.
One of these is a dead weight. The other is a run of the mill Healer.

The entire point of a Healer is to keep the party alive. Anything you do beyond that basic task is a bonus to the party. Just like Dancers who use Shield Samba and Curing Waltz properly to lighten the load on the Healer, or a melee DPS using Feint and Bloodbath.
We don't scream at DPS for not using the more supportive buttons in their kits. We encourage their use, sure. But never to the disturbing degree that Healers get shat on over DPS.

A Healer who never damages is just as effective for the party in their primary role as a Healer who is comfortable and capable of pushing damage between Heals. If they weren't there to Heal you, You would be dead.

We should be encouraging people to find openings to do damage, not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

[Lersayil]

And this right here is what disgusts me about the whole argument. Dead weight is someone who contributes nothing to the success of the run. AKA, someone off AFK in a corner.

Take a Healer who never casts damage spells. Run a dungeon. You finished it, right? With no complications? Right.
Now take a Healer who never casts a Heal. Run the dungeon. How far did you get? Not very far.
One of these is a dead weight. The other is a run of the mill Healer.

The entire point of a Healer is to keep the party alive. Anything you do beyond that basic task is a bonus to the party. Just like Dancers who use Shield Samba and Curing Waltz properly to lighten the load on the Healer, or a melee DPS using Feint and Bloodbath.
We don't scream at DPS for not using the more supportive buttons in their kits. We encourage their use, sure. But never to the disturbing degree that Healers get shat on over DPS.

A Healer who never damages is just as effective for the party in their primary role as a Healer who is comfortable and capable of pushing damage between Heals. If they weren't there to Heal you, You would be dead.

We should be encouraging people to find openings to do damage, not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

To be fair to both sides... it would be more correct to say that they are being a deadweight 60% of the instance (if we estimate a 40% healing uptime, and I'm being generous if we assume lvl80).

Might not qualify for the label of "deadweight", but if a DPS or tank only did stuff 40% of the time in a duty, I would most certainly call them bad at their job.

[Mansion]

not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? We are not asking 99 parse or nothing. Nobody ever asked that actually. There's an in between.

The deadweight idea, I was more thinking about 8man normal raids or 24man raids, when I heal there. Usually, I end up healing as much (or more) than a bad co healer who doesn't use half of their kit, over heal, put shields that time out rather than get absorbed, compared to someone that just times right their healing resources, prioritizing oGCDs which are free and more powerful (and let you DPS...)

A WHM in a dungeon can pretty much heal with oGCD and Lilies, an AST could too. Not sure for SCH as I don't heal a lot with it, but I would not be surprised if it was the case.

[Sylve]

To be fair to both sides... it would be more correct to say that they are being a deadweight 60% of the instance (if we estimate a 40% healing uptime, and I'm being generous if we assume lvl80).

Might not qualify for the label of "deadweight", but if a DPS or tank only did stuff 40% of the time in a duty, I would most certainly call them bad at their job.

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

In full DF runs where its every man for himself with wild swings in individual skill, I can look at data across an entire non EX trial fight that puts the Healers outgoing damage making up only 25% of their total actions taken. And thats a Healer who was matching the Tank on damage.

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? We are not asking 99 parse or nothing. Nobody ever asked that actually. There's an in between.

The deadweight idea, I was more thinking about 8man normal raids or 24man raids, when I heal there. Usually, I end up healing as much (or more) than a bad co healer who doesn't use half of their kit, over heal, put shields that time out rather than get absorbed, compared to someone that just times right their healing resources, prioritizing oGCDs which are free and more powerful (and let you DPS...)

A WHM in a dungeon can pretty much heal with oGCD and Lilies, an AST could too. Not sure for SCH as I don't heal a lot with it, but I would not be surprised if it was the case.

And good job cutting off the most relevant part of the line you quoted.

That middle ground is precisely what I said the Healing community should be aiming to teach newcomers. But its not. Instead, we have people like you calling Healers dead weight for not doing DPS and threads all over the Healing forum complaining endlessly about Healers who dont, or minimally DPS.

For your line about 8/24s, You heal like that because of your experience and understanding that comes with it of those fights. You've memorized the dance and mapped out your responses.
Then you tell a newcomer or someone who is far less experienced with that content that they should be healing with oGCDs almost exclusively right off the bat?
No. You should be telling them to learn the fight and understand the most effective responses to each mechanic.
THEN you nudge them in the direction of spending the freed resources on damage.

For cryin' out loud, teach them to walk before you demand they run.

Also, as someone who plays all 3 Healers as 'mains' in 80 content, we vastly outgear Dungeons because the ilvl syncing is obscenely high compared to the minimum. Thats why they're so damned easy to heal. That and the clockwork nature of boss mechanics (That i've railed against for a long time).

[Mansion]

And good job cutting off the most relevant part of the line you quoted.

That middle ground is precisely what I said the Healing community should be aiming to teach newcomers. But its not. Instead, we have people like you calling Healers dead weight for not doing DPS and threads all over the Healing forum complaining endlessly about Healers who dont, or minimally DPS.

Well, fair game as you just did it before, because we essentially agree and I don't get the virulence. Yes I am experienced, but no I won't hold anything against a new player because... they are new and I'm not a dick. It happened to me yesterday in the Malikah dungeon actually, and everything went well.

Regardless, I'm not talking about newcomers (and most forum rants either) or inexperienced healers, we are talking about healers "main" who have played and healed on FFXIV for a long time and STILL won't DPS because they don't WANT to, but argue that their position is receivable.

A new player that does not know the fight and / or the job: fine. They'll learn.
A rusty healer that knows basics but need some warm up : fine. They'll find their feet.
An experienced casual player approaching new content with caution : fine. They'll learn the fight.
A player joining Extreme or Savage PFs not doing any DPS : not fine.
An experienced player doing nothing useful during weekly stuff (raids and roulettes) : not fine in theory, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Do you get the distinction I'm trying to make? No one is expecting going from sprout to 99 DPS parse.

[Lersayil]

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

In full DF runs where its every man for himself with wild swings in individual skill, I can look at data across an entire non EX trial fight that puts the Healers outgoing damage making up only 25% of their total actions taken. And thats a Healer who was matching the Tank on damage.

I was actually thinking of casual DF. PF pugs can be hit or miss. And even then, I think 40% is still an overstatement given the massive amount of oGDCs we have (unless the group is an absolute disaster, in which case you have bigger issues than healer dps).

But to reiterate, I think its fair to expect someone to utilize at least ~75% of their GCD time usefully in any level of play. If that time is filled with useful healing then fine. But otherwise I expect them to sit on that dps button.

[EaMett]

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

I think you're overestimating the value of a healer and underestimating optimized settings. As a reminder, dungeon speed runs have often been done without a healer at all.
I don't even do optimized runs but when I go in with players from my static all the healing I need to do in ex roulette is basically an excog on tank for trash and a whispering dawn on the bosses.
Likewise when I run expert roulette by myself in the duty finder I still don't use a single gcd in combat. It takes a really under-geared tank not using any CDs pulling wall to wall to get me to cast an actual heal. Everything else is ogcd. Of course everyone's mileage will vary, based on skill, comfort, gear, etc... But the idea that spending 40% of your time healing in dungeons is a normal average is just incorrect. You would have to be topping everyone up always to hit those numbers and at that point you should really focus on sharpening your skills. hence all the "healers should dps" threads.

To get an idea of how much time is spent healing in content in semi-optimized to optimized settings you're looking at about 20-10% healing in savage, 30-20% in ultimate. That's a lot of time doing nothing.

Normal duty finder raids(8-24)/trials when content is new and mentor roulette duty finder extreme trials are pretty much the only places where healing becomes a significant part of your gameplay. But those are very limited situations.

I've played MMO's where random damage spikes were a thing and let me tell you, it's not fun. Never knowing when someone is going to be hit super hard based on RNG is stressful as hell. Predictability is important for both healers and tanks.

Yeah, people have different takes on it. The gameplay becomes less about timing heals and more about spamming heals and managing your mana cleverly. I found that once you make that abstraction and forget about the actual healing to focus on the actual mana management it became pretty fun. But alas, I'm sure it's not for everyone, just as dpsing as healer is clearly not for everyone.