Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Kalise]

That small part was still a hell of a lot more than literally zero interaction, as was suggested by removing GL from Monk.

It's basically the same as not having GL. When you only use it when you have CD's that bypass it consuming GL or when your GL is going to fall off irregardless.

As mentioned, so long as GL is tied to a passive DPS gain, it's going to be near impossible to get an actually worthy "Mechanic" from it and at best you'll get something watered down into Huton/Blood of the Dragon/Enochian where it's a binary toggle on at the start of a fight and oh look you can now use X ability every now and then.

Since what will always happen, is someone will do the math to find out if/when consuming GL is a DPS gain and then it will only be a "Mechanic" in those circumstances where it is (Which, has so far been predominantly "When GL doesn't matter")

This is effectively a non-mechanic. Just as much as crap like Darkside/Enochian/Blood of the Dragon/Huton are a non-mechanic. Where you only think about them once or twice in a fight and only in very specific scenarios.

They're one and the same. AST Sects being designed as a simply out-of-combat SCH/WHM mode toggle, rather than actually building around hastened/periodic and empowered/preemptory mechanics to be used with synergy between them, is what made AST feel like a WHM/SCH-lite.

But that's what I was pointing out. AST Sects are crap because they're simply "Be a WHM" or "Be a SCH".

If they were instead designed around making AST do uniquely AST things it would have been much less of a problem. But no, it was "Here, have Regen and Medica II" or "Here have a shitty Adlo and Succor"

At least we're getting some mixing of the Sects in combat through skills like Celestial Intersection and Neutral Sect... Though, that's still just being WHM/SCH-lite these days...

Why are you condemning me over it, even ignoring the fact that imitating a DRG-lite or NIN-lite is not what we'd want? It was your suggestion. I simply pointed out that having the stances do so little would amount to only bloat, either in terms of relatively useless features or CS-like empty apm.

Since you seem to miss the point.

I mentioned that the stances are NOT making MNK into DRG-lite or NIN-lite. Which is the opposite of how Sects were designed, which instead of allowing AST to be AST, were simply WHM-lite and SCH-lite toggles.

Stances that are actual stances that have actual impact on how you play, while still retaining a uniquely MNK gameplay have yet to be seen and nothing similar has existed in the game (Outside maybe old Darkside? Where without it you got normal MP regen but with it you relied on an increased MP generation from skill usage?)

With an actual appreciable effect on your gameplay, rather than useless Earth stance and mandatory Fire/Wind depending on what SE feels like making the best with a particular MNK change.

To say nothing about how it would interact with optimization, where you might alter which stance you use depending on how much SkS you have on your gear if you wanted to min/max DPS.

With the final point being, it would allow the devs to be able to let MNK's go as fast as they want. They've already noted how they don't want the rift between top and bottom tier players to widen because of the bottom players difficulty playing fast. This is why they gutted a bunch of MNK's oGCD's when they added the 4th stack of GL.

They not only already expressed concerns, but also made detrimental changes to MNK's because of this.

Meanwhile, a static, out of combat choice that enables a player to tune the speed of their MNK would completely alleviate this concern of theirs, because it would mean that the bottom tier players who struggle with speed demon MNK play could opt for a lower speed and get increased damage to compensate, allowing them to still be on par with other MNK's while playing at a more managable pace.

Thus, it would let them actually add in fast gameplay with all the oGCD's MNK used to have for all the players who wish to play that way.

Trying to shoehorn in a pogo style alternating speed into the core gameplay of MNK, will just have them continue to do things to curb MNK's maximum APM so the people who can't play speed demon MNK can still utilize the job.

This could be even more relevant if other changes are made to MNK's kit, such as an improved Chakra system, better Riddle skills, more skills to use in combos, enhanced combos (I.e. Each skill functions like a Mudra and gives a different bonus to the final Coeurl skill) and the plethora of other things that could be altered to have more engagement attached.

I don't suggest something as simple as 3 stances that are functionally the same DPS increase for the sake of being redundant or poorly thought out, but instead because such a feature will serve to help MNK grow in potential complexity because instead of being designed in a vacuum, it is an idea designed with a problem that the devs have outright stated in mind.

So, yes. Convert the current useless Stances into "Useless" Stances, to allow for the betterment of the job as a whole. Rather than trying to cling on to useless features that serve to only hold back the potential of the job or outright cause detriment to it.

[Shurrikhan]

It's basically the same as not having GL. When you only use it when you have CD's that bypass it consuming GL or when your GL is going to fall off regardless.

That is already more thought than required by most decisions to be made in this game. But, you know what, fine, let's just get rid of all choices since they amount to nothing, even if somehow everyone was, in just your last post, being utterly baffled by that very same "non-decision".

But that's what I was pointing out. AST Sects are crap because they're simply "Be a WHM" or "Be a SCH".

If they were instead designed around making AST do uniquely AST things it would have been much less of a problem. But no, it was "Here, have Regen and Medica II" or "Here have a shitty Adlo and Succor"

That's my point. So why would you possibly want to do the same thing to MNK?

Stances that are actual stances that have actual impact on how you play

Are not what you are suggesting here. You are suggesting, effectively, SkS tiers, but as uses up three different buttons. They have zero use in combat, especially if, as you suggested, we were to lock them out like AST Sects. And I do not see how you could possibly throw out any all ideas of in-combat speed manipulation, because there could be a faintly more optimal choice -- albeit a different one at any given point in time -- yet not see how much a Damage-based permanent speed option would favor raid-buff-heavy compositions do to synergies with oGCDs, LF, and Demolish, effectively removing all higher speed options because you cannot switch them in combat.

You worry about the chance that burning GL might be optimal once or twice per minute yet are completely fine with being stuck in a low-speed mode permanently? How do you reconcile this?

If the threat of losing at most 5% performance for not making use of GL-burns (similarly to TKs, but without suddenly dropping your speed completely) in a raid-buff-heavy comp is enough to say that all choice was removed from Monk's speed, how is a permanent AST Sect, for which there will be a single best choice at all times, not just at a given moment, somehow better?

[Kalise]

That's my point. So why would you possibly want to do the same thing to MNK?

I'm not suggesting the same thing for MNK.

I'm not suggesting MNK get stances that simply turns their skills into DRG's dual 5 point combo or into NIN's Ninjutsu or into SAM's Sen combos and Iaijutsu.

Since, as I've said repeatedly, the main problem with AST's Sects is that their effect on AST's skills is to literally just copy one of the existing healers skills.

Had AST gained unique skills from Sects, they'd be less of an issue.

not see how much a Damage-based permanent speed option would favor raid-buff-heavy compositions do to synergies with oGCDs, LF, and Demolish, effectively removing all higher speed options because you cannot switch them in combat.

You worry about the chance that burning GL might be optimal once or twice per minute yet are completely fine with being stuck in a low-speed mode permanently? How do you reconcile this?

I can reconcile this by the nature of not being so narrowminded as to not have the capacity to comprehend potential designs for skills.

Given that I have literally stated no numbers for a reason.

Thus, it would be possible (Also, necessary) to balance the numbers of the increase in damage to the increase in SkS.

In addition, it's possible to adjust exactly how skills interact. Such as if oGCD's are a concern, then make the damage up be Weaponskill Damage modifier and thus not affect oGCD's. If Demolish is a concern, make the increased attack rate an actual Skill Speed modifier so the DoT damage is increased.

how is a permanent AST Sect, for which there will be a single best choice at all times, not just at a given moment, somehow better?

It is better because it allows for more flexibility in the design of Monk as a whole.

Rather than focusing entirely on a MNK playing with his speed for ~5% difference at the cost of the rest of MNK's kit being poorly designed due to dev's concern for high speed potential on MNK.

The stance suggestion is intentionally simple because it then allows for the entire rest of MNK's kit to be more interesting.

Unless you're so delusional to think that the same devs who gutted like half of MNK's oGCD's when adding in an extra 5% recast time reduction from 4th GL stack due to concerns of MNK APM would be prepared to keep said 20% total recast time reduction whilst also making something like Chakra be more interesting than RNG oGCD?

[Shurrikhan]

I can reconcile this by the nature of not being so narrowminded as to not have the capacity to comprehend potential designs for skills.

My point was that it's a fundamental issue. Yes, I already assumed that it obviously would only affect weaponskills. But so long as Monk has certain skills with higher per-execute potency than others, that changes nothing. So long as damage multiplicity, buff windows, and per-execute-potency variance remain a thing, the fundamental issue remains as well. Changing Attack Speed to affect Periodic Damage by the same percentage as it affects GCD speed would be a start, and quite likely a wise change regardless (which is why I've often recommended it, though to your derision last time I did), but if a minute performance gap is enough to "force" what you play, you'd still ultimately be stuck with whichever best snapshots into the raid buffs your composition offers. At such a confined performance level, we don't get choice, we at best get diversity with low costs for playing how we want. By locking speeds to out-of-combat changes only, you're taking the worst of both worlds here: no further choice than when attempting to make use of all three stances optimally, but also taking away all the diversity of making use of all three stances. Your design has a Wind-Monk, an Earth-Monk, or a Fire-Monk, a la B&S's old Wind and Fire specs. There is no complete just "Monk" in that.

Now, I'd probably be relatively okay with that, but it's going to be as an effective design as letting people actually move between the stances with decent balance and frequent reasons to shift between them, with multiple viable choices at most junctures. Without that in-fight diversity, it doesn't seem particularly even worth spending 3 buttons on.

Rather than focusing entirely on a MNK playing with his speed for ~5% difference at the cost of the rest of MNK's kit being poorly designed due to dev's concern for high speed potential on MNK.

At no point. Have I. Ever. Suggested that Monk be focused entirely on playing with his speed. I said quite simply that we've got four issues as unintended consequences of Monk changes over the last three expansions that leaving GL as a mechanic but allowing stacks to fall off separately and GL duration to be spent in certain ways could easily fix. That is it. It is a foundation for design. It precludes nothing.

This cost you're speaking of has nothing to do with what I've suggested. My concern has been revitalizing skills that have had their synergies gutted over time rather than leaving them poorly designed, the exact opposite of what you are piling on me. Pick one. Either I'm the dissenter wanting to revamp core interactions that have since been on life-support and which everyone would rather just see taken out back and buried or I'm the developer shill who wants to keep all these issues exactly the same despite having progressively criticized the removal of their synergies over the last 5 years. I cannot be both.

Unless you're so delusional to think that the same devs who gutted like half of MNK's oGCD's when adding in an extra 5% recast time reduction from 4th GL stack due to concerns of MNK APM would be prepared to keep said 20% total recast time reduction whilst also making something like Chakra be more interesting than RNG oGCD?

They removed 2.33 APM. That's out of an average of 42.3 casts per minute in any high-uptime fight. They removed barely over 5% of its APM while increasing attack speed by the same 5%. And in the meanwhile, they're perfectly happy with MCHs having an APM of 46+ despite that APM being applied far, far more tightly and ping-restrictively, and NINs nearing 50 APM. Judging by other the jobs, we've still got 8% to 18% more speed to go before APM would become an issue.

Now, let's ignore the fact that Monk's ramped-up speed would be exactly the same regardless. Do you seriously expect that even the faintest increase to apm would break Monk for a significant portion of its players? Because I'm seeing 2 skills out, 4 skills in, exactly the same as was done for SB, more than any significant attempt to reduce APM, else they certainly wouldn't have given us Deep Meditation II, which already made for up SP on its own. And how many people do you see on this thread who have been begging for lower average speeds cus Monk is just too damn hard? I certainly haven't asked for it. And while I can see several posts asking for higher speeds or more complex rotations, I'm not seeing anyone else asking for it all to be slowed down, either. Did I just miss it? Pass the link and I'll stand corrected.

Really, what exactly is it that makes any high speeds or GL and/or Chakra as actual interesting mechanics so unimaginable for you?

If it really is just the plain and simple fact that the devs want to leave every job slowed down and/or brain-dead, should I then be totally fine with that just because it's what they want? I'm not. But, by all means, enjoy another layer of RNG and further bloated and/or disfunctional skills next expansion if you are.

If you are likewise not okay with that, then let me again make clear:

My intent is to fix issues and clunky and/or nuance-diminishing restrictions that have come as unintended consequences of Monk changes over the last three expansions. To that end, I have proposed leaving GL as a mechanic but allowing stacks to fall off separately and GL duration to be spent granularly and in a highly optional manner that would provide further flexibility and mobility, since it can deal with each of those issues. That is it. It is a foundation for design. It precludes nothing.

[Kalise]

My point was that it's a fundamental issue.

Well, this "Fundamental" issue is one that is intrinsic to the game at large.

If the concern is being "Forced" into a particular stance because of Raid buff synergy when playing for min/max status, then that is never going to change. Since, no matter what all efforts at "Choice" will result in the same thing.

So long as raid buffs exist and damage buffs stack multiplicatively, you'll always end up not having a choice. As there will always be a mathematical "Best" that you will be "Forced" into if you want to play min/max.

Even with your suggested speed manipulation, there will be a mathematical best usage that will yield maximum DPS (Most likely, sitting on GL3 until raid buffs then dumping everything, using Anatman and dumping everything again. Such choice!)

no further choice than when attempting to make use of all three stances optimally

Like we've ever had choice in this. Earth stance has been useless since its inception.

Wind Stance has only been useful for a single ability in StB and only now has use in ShB because of the 4th GL being tied to it (With 5% SkS and 5% damage outperforming the 10% damage of Fire interesting given how much you've gone on about important DMG is. Heck, Fire is also global damage so affects oGCD's too! By your own admission, we'd want to be going into Fire for CD phases, but everywhere I look it's Wind > all when at 4 GL)

but also taking away all the diversity of making use of all three stances.

Though, this is why I also mentioned changes to the Riddle skills to make up for the loss of potential in "Stance swapping" between the fists, by having Riddle of Earth and Riddle of Wind be actually interesting and useful skills to contrast against Riddle of Fire and it's raw damage boost.

with multiple viable choices at most junctures.

There are no choices. Not for optimal play. As I've mentioned above. There will never be a choice in this game if you're playing for min/max.

Without that in-fight diversity, it doesn't seem particularly even worth spending 3 buttons on.

Honestly, if it's buttons you're concerned about, you can literally condense the stances into a single button that simply cycles between them. Something that has bothered me about Sects and old Tank/DPS stances, there's no reason to not have one active and thus make a single button to cycle between them. (Other than maybe, the devs can't be bothered to make a full kit and so want to keep pointless buttons around to fill out the required number of actions per job)

At no point. Have I. Ever. Suggested that Monk be focused entirely on playing with his speed.

No, but you have to think about what the devs are likely to do.

So far they've shown that they like to make a jobs focus be about primarily a single aspect. Add to that the "Coincidence" in the lack of job evolution for MNK since TK has been implemented and doubling down on buttons to manage GL.

Making speed manipulation a thing, would likely get used as MNK's primary focus, causing other aspects of the job to get less attention.

Do you seriously expect that even the faintest increase to apm would break Monk for a significant portion of its players?

It's not what I expect, but what the developers expect that matters.

If it was up to me, I'd be making jobs more complex over time, not less. With the "Issue" of bad players being solved by telling them to "Git gud"

But I'm not the one developing the game. The people that are, have expressed concern over how fast MNK plays and have made changes that reflects that (As I recall, they did literally say the reason they removed oGCD actions from MNK was because they wanted to add in that 4th GL stack)

Really, what exactly is it that makes any high speeds or GL and/or Chakra as actual interesting mechanics so unimaginable for you?

The way the devs have changed jobs. Their stance on aspects of jobs. Quotes from them that leave me with less than stellar opinions about their view of the game (Including "People find WHM hard to play, so we're making it easier")

I'm not. But, by all means, enjoy another layer of RNG and further bloated and/or disfunctional skills next expansion if you are.

If you are likewise not okay with that, then let me again make clear:

Let me make this clear:

My simplification of the issue of MNK speed and tying it to something as "Boring" as out of combat stances, is not a merely a sign of accepting boring and bloated skill design that the devs have trended towards in recent days.

It is merely a tidying up of mechanics, to allow other areas of MNK to flourish and get far better design than they would ever likely see in the case where GL stacks are still tied to speed and raw damage.

This includes the fact that, I am not only, not against GL becoming a mechanic, but have outright suggested a potential mechanic that utilizes GL.

The suggestion I made coincided with thoughts about having Riddle of Earth and Riddle of Wind be changed to have a "Riddle of Fire" type impact on performance, but in unique ways that would more accurately portray the "Stance Dancing" that swapping between Fists of Earth/Wind/Fire could theoretically have (But have yet to actually coalesce, especially given that so far the only significant change caused by Fists has been Shoulder Tackle being slightly different in each stance)

On top of a massive overhaul to Chakra, to make that not only less RNG reliant, but also more interesting to boot (Honestly, I've always been a fan of the 7 Light Chakra and 7 Dark Chakra idea since that became a major plot point in the MNK job quests. Also that cool super saiyan mode that was the Forbidden Chakra right before we got just a lame oGCD skill)

This is because we have yet to be shown that devs are willing to do anything interesting with uptime skills that are tied to passive DPS increases. We have evidence of that with Darkside/Huton/Blood of the Dragon/Enochian/Songs. We could also include WAR's Storm's Eye too and even their Wrath/Deliverance stacks which have been axed with ShB.

Heck, even not real jobs have been affected by this particular modus operadi of the devs, with BLU having Off-Guard gutted into a mere "Trick Attack-lite" CD.

With all of this, why would anyone, ever think that the devs are suddenly going to do a 180 and make MNK of all jobs, suddenly have a GL that continues to be a passive DPS boost, also have an appreciable mechanic tied to it, especially given the current and previous expansion where they've done literally nothing to reinforce it as a mechanic and kept it as this thing that you just maintain and sort of interact with occasionally?