Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Gojin]

Agreed monk feels so boring to play now compared to other jobs, ninja and samurai get all these anime cool looking moves monk gets like one on a long cool down then the rng depended brotherhood move. So when I have to farm for striking glam gear I use my samurai now.

[Ramura_Sono]

A passive haste gain is not a mechanic. It has no trigger. It has no decision-making. It has no unique reward system.

And? Would the damage buff half of GL not be enough to facilitate such a thing?

The problem is giving up speed is antithetical to the feel of monk. That's the reason why RoF was hated. Why TK saw it's first potency nerf. You can't tie the haste to any mechanic that asks you to willingly lose it and expect it to be well recieved. It would be like asking ninjas to give up mudras/ninjutsus, or dragoons to give up jumps as part of a mechanic. Look at HW Bard. Giving up a core part of the feel of the class, no matter what reward is gained, or decisions involved, will always be met with disdain.

Let's not pretend that the decision making facilitated by the difficulty of maintaining GL in the past would have in any way been lessened if GL was purely a %damage buff.

If GL can't become a meaningful mechanic with the haste buff removed from it then let's leave it as a non-mechanic. There are more places to fit in meaningful decision making than just GL alone.

[Mahrze]

Remove the haste buff from it and make it instead a monk passive, and GL can become an actual mechanic.

A passive haste gain is not a mechanic. It has no trigger. It has no decision-making. It has no unique reward system.

And it still isn't. GL being treated as a "mechanic" is exactly why MNK doesn't change. I can safely assume the whole reason why FoW is the only one that can go to GL4 is due to them treating GL as a "mechanic". And I have no issues if it was a mechanic that was rewarding, but it isn't. Its why we keep getting more and more abilities to maintain it and "manage" its loss.

GL can be much more by leaving the speed gimmick penalty out of it. Make the speed a passive trait and stop messing with how people expect the job to be fast. GL being only "power" related would still be a mechanic people would want to optimize since it would focus on what everyone wants in any number: do more damage. And an example of that already exists in BLM's "Enochian".

MNK has enough "penalties" on its performance as it does layers of inconsistencies within its job design. Wane the severity and number of penalties to a job that should be much more straight-foward than it is, and you're off to a good start.

[Shurrikhan]

And it still isn't. GL being treated as a "mechanic" is exactly why MNK doesn't change.

How is that, exactly, when it has not been treated as a mechanic save for precisely two times? Back in ARR it was a significant skill gap component for which MNK was rewarded with optimized damage bordering on or exceeding that of optimized BLMs. The only other time was during the later half of SB, during which it also inadvertently enforced a TK playstyle at lower SkS levels due to the sheer power of its timeable burst in an era swamped with large performance gaps from raid buff optimization alone but at least made intelligent, synergetic use of its toolkit. Those are the only two times, and the only two directions, in which the devs have ever tried to really make a core gameplay loop out of it, and neither of those required any additional bloat or skill-spam be devoted to its use, unlike the Form Shift spam between fights we see to day atop Anatman, SSS, and TK all competing for a part of play so underwhelming that its interactions are niche (Anatman, TK, SSS) or pure gimmick/anti-QoL (Form Shift spam).

There is no requirement that GL not be rewarding. It already has been, and that's been when taking only a slim part of the opportunities available to it.

GL can be much more by leaving the speed gimmick penalty out of it. Make the speed a passive trait and stop messing with how people expect the job to be fast. GL being only "power" related would still be a mechanic people would want to optimize since it would focus on what everyone wants in any number: do more damage.

Like what? Give me something more than just Foul or Chakra-but-with-even-more-RNG and I'll probably be quite invested. But until then, GL retaining its speed component, a Dragon Kick rework, a bit of internal potency balancing, and that GL speed component finally being played around as part of the core experience is all that's needed in order to return branching rotational options that can turn Monk's stale, unvaried rotation into something capable of tremendous nuance, tactility, and flexibility, so I'm naturally going to want GL to retain its speed component until your alternate version it offers something better than a nuanced, flexible, and tactical rotation. Tornado Foul is not that.

[Mahrze]

How is that, exactly, when it has not been treated as a mechanic save for precisely two times? Back in ARR it was a significant skill gap component for which MNK was rewarded with optimized damage bordering on or exceeding that of optimized BLMs. The only other time was during the later half of SB, during which it also inadvertently enforced a TK playstyle at lower SkS levels due to the sheer power of its timeable burst in an era swamped with large performance gaps from raid buff optimization alone but at least made intelligent, synergetic use of its toolkit. Those are the only two times, and the only two directions, in which the devs have ever tried to really make a core gameplay loop out of it, and neither of those required any additional bloat or skill-spam be devoted to its use, unlike the Form Shift spam between fights we see to day atop Anatman, SSS, and TK all competing for a part of play so underwhelming that its interactions are niche (Anatman, TK, SSS) or pure gimmick/anti-QoL (Form Shift spam).

There is no requirement that GL not be rewarding. It already has been, and that's been when taking only a slim part of the opportunities available to it.

I don’t see how you can write all that and not realize that GL is being forced as a mechanic. In ARR the gimmick was GL because it was the make or break thing for MNK, it game MNK its identity. SBs TK rotation was something the community did, not the developers, they likely didn’t even think the community would come up with something like that. Keep in mind that when people complained about the 3 tackle issue and asked instead of GL4, they disagreed because “GL4 would be too powerful” as per QA back in 2017, and it wasn’t until they gutted MNK of extra oGCDs that they decided to remove the speed nerf from RoF.

Q: The new monk skill “Riddle of Fire” is a very powerful buff, but because the effect increases the GCD, it is very stressful to play. Monk had a feeling of speedy combat, so if adjustments are possible, please implement them.

A: We considered Greased Lightning IV, but felt it would become too fast and widen the gap between player DPS even further. We understand that you may feel more stressed about the recast time increase rather than the buff itself; however, I’m sure players will see the effect of this from prolonged battles, such as those from Omega: Deltascape (Savage). Despite this, if we do receive more requests, then we’ll consider it; however, we believe it’s somewhat complete, so we would appreciate if you could first try it out.

in ShB as is we both are aware that they still treat GL as a gimmick/mechanic when we got 2 skills relating to it and one anti-qol change to the most spammed skill we have to “adjust” for the usual “GL loss”.

As you can see GL (and its buffs by association) has always been treated like one since you don’t have a choice when it comes to GL, the times when its optimal to “lose the stacks” are so rare that it makes TK almost not usable nor the requisites tied to it any less “intuitive”. GL gives MNK both damage and speed and by design you never want to lose it, and even if speed was removed, the damage buff it gives will still make it something you don’t want to lose.

Like what? Give me something more than just Foul or Chakra-but-with-even-more-RNG and I'll probably be quite invested. But until then, GL retaining its speed component, a Dragon Kick rework, a bit of internal potency balancing, and that GL speed component finally being played around as part of the core experience is all that's needed in order to return branching rotational options that can turn Monk's stale, unvaried rotation into something capable of tremendous nuance, tactility, and flexibility, so I'm naturally going to want GL to retain its speed component until your alternate version it offers something better than a nuanced, flexible, and tactical rotation. Tornado Foul is not that.

I wasn’t giving you tornado foul or chakra a la carte. Nor am I asking you to be invested. You’re advocating for a nuance that at this point doesn’t exist. The problem why many of us can’t agree is due to how many directions they can take MNK forward all can be 50/50 at best.

Chakras are make or break due to RNG reliant, pushing a “BRD” approach to give them some form of guaranteed proc and SE will land the nerf hammer on MNK hard and fast. Some others talk about 7/14/Light/Dark chakras and while that *could* be an interesting idea, but at best I see them giving us something like RDM to gain “light” and “dark”. Even “Meditation” atm feels like an unnecessary button to press while not in combat when you could just have TFC available by default.

Positionals were made near non-existent with 80%+ uptime to negate them through 2 abilities with the one that matters the most is the one associated to Dragon Kick + Leaden Fist. you at best need 10-15 seconds of bothering with positionals to maintain “perfect” uptime.

The Fists have never really worked outside of staying in FoF unless “something” happens that allows you to swap to the other. And the forms are basically a way for them to gate a “dance sequence” to a branching 6 skill loop that we look for some nuance in, with Form Shift rn being the biggest offender in spamming a button because you “have to”.

And then the subject at hand, GL. Somehow treating the stack you get from it as a resource you have to make the choice on betting it on TK (which only matters before the end of the fight or a long transition (which I only really use at the end of a fight and I am aware I am not a top tier MNK)) but if the transition is shorter than the 16s, you don’t release GL because of how valuable it is.

And what would I propose? A full rework. Idk how but all of these imo just don’t seem to hold any weight in value and are just there because MNK “needed” something it make it “different” from the rest.


Addendum: MNK as it stands is not a brawler by any comparison. It just punches things. Its a PUG pretending to be a MNK. I'd rather see MNK be a brawler with a high risk/high reward approach not by "losing" its main source of power. A brawler than focuses on sustained damage rather than a "burst phase" every 60/90/120s like every other DPS. Sustained damage that is rewarded because you know how to use your skills effectively. A brawler that has the speed to move in and out and having the tools to make the risk be rewarding for the mobility.

[Shurrikhan]

I don’t see how you can write all that and not realize that GL is being forced as a mechanic.

If it changes absolutely nothing about the way you play, it is not a mechanic. Since ARR, there has been no skillful maintenance of GL required to perform well in raids. Unlike in T9 and perhaps T7, in HW (with GL's extended duration) breaks have been either so long that TK was just free potency or so short that TK wasn't viable. At that point, it was a mechanic that rendered yet another skill niche, a mere compensation for an above-average ramp-up (a tax more than a "mechanic") over which you had no effective control. Only with later SB did it finally enhance the toolkit rather than merely detract from it, by offering conditional weights, values, and points of decision -- finally becoming a mechanic. Whether that was intended or not has absolutely no effect on the result. It happened, and it was the most interactive and effective design GL had yet taken, especially since its 10-second duration back in ARR.

You’re advocating for a nuance that at this point doesn’t exist.

None of what any of us are advocating for exist. That's why we're advocating for them. The only difference is that what I'm asking for has previous existed, before being effectively removed by changes to GL and DK.

And what would I propose? A full rework. Idk how but all of these imo just don’t seem to hold any weight in value and are just there because MNK “needed” something it make it “different” from the rest.

Addendum: MNK as it stands is not a brawler by any comparison. It just punches things. Its a PUG pretending to be a MNK. I'd rather see MNK be a brawler with a high risk/high reward approach not by "losing" its main source of power.

And I'm all for that. I'm just not for not allowing speed variance to ever be a mechanic, as by making it a passive rather than a manipulable. That's not to say it's currently a manipulable. That's not to say it ever has been, except in the hands of particular SkS breakpoints in combination with RoF's slow. But it has been used to good effect at many SkS breakpoints during the times of ToD/Fracture and easily could be again with even minor changes to GL and a rework of DK/LF. Heck, Meditation and SSS could easily be pulled out of the mud by those same, relatively minor, changes. Not that I would stop there.

To me, Monk should have burst, but burst largely of their own making rather than merely on set timers. Set timers can still push the rotation forward and demand sync therearound, adding to rhythm and giving clear initial targets for optimization, but the complexity of Monk should come from decisions made to prepare for an around those targets rather than on just hitting them on cooldown (making what is usually the "lull" the most cognitively engaging part, and the "highs" merely a sweet, sweet drag of satisfaction as it all clicks as intended).

In my preference, it should be wholly viable, but not quite optimal, to stay at full speed at all times, if one wants to play more consistently. No gambling, no huge risk-reward systems that would ever have you drop speed, are required for getting even to the 80th percentile or so, or doing a good 90% of optimal damage.

The rule of thumb for all but the highest levels of gameplay could be "Tap into GL(/Ki/Chakra/whatever), but never so much that you level down (to a lower stack count)," just as "Feel free to burst into a lower GL count if your Twin/DK/Demo durations would otherwise be excessive and you have no further oGCDs to cast within the rotational string" might be a nuance learned early on that adds to, rather than detracts from, flexibility and nuance of play.

On all other parts, I agree with you. I just think manipulating speed could be a hugely lucrative mechanic for Monk if it were just utilized as an actual mechanic rather than a passive with a ramp-up "Monk tax" that enforces a bunch of otherwise bloat skills.

[Mahrze]

On all other parts, I agree with you. I just think manipulating speed could be a hugely lucrative mechanic for Monk if it were just utilized as an actual mechanic rather than a passive with a ramp-up "Monk tax" that enforces a bunch of otherwise bloat skills.

And I don't disagree with it being lucrative or something that can have benefits tied to. But based on what you can find as feedback with most posts from SB and onwards until they removed the slowdown from RoF, is that the slowdown was quite unwelcome, just like SSS's slowdown.

[Ramura_Sono]

And I'm all for that. I'm just not for not allowing speed variance to ever be a mechanic...

In my preference, it should be wholly viable, but not quite optimal, to stay at full speed at all times, if one wants to play more consistently. No gambling, no huge risk-reward systems that would ever have you drop speed, are required for getting even to the 80th percentile or so, or doing a good 90% of optimal damage...

I just think manipulating speed could be a hugely lucrative mechanic for Monk if it were just utilized as an actual mechanic rather than a passive with a ramp-up "Monk tax" that enforces a bunch of otherwise bloat skills.

Except you're trying to suggest it for a job with players that have historically hated the variability of speed within the rotation. Though I'd expect if the manipulation of speed was for the job to go faster rather than slower it'd see more acceptance amongst the playerbase. You ask people to specify what they enjoy about the job, yet ignore what they've hated about it. The majority of monk players want to go fast and stay fast. Why do you consistently ignore that fact? Pushing the manipulation of speed as a Monk mechanic will at best be enjoyed to the same degree as the TK rotation -which itself was more enjoyed for the fact it made use of nearly all of monks skills rather than any other aspect or nuance- and at worst drive even more of it's remaining players away.

Pushing for something that has consistently been hated by the majority of Monks players in an attempt to return any semblance of it's past nuances is foolish.
Let's be honest here. The vast majority of people aren't playing or not playing jobs for the minutia in the nuances of play they provide. It's all about the core play style and feel of the job.

As far as TK just being Monk Foul. Why is that a problem? Homogeneity? If so where's your complaints about Dragoon and Black Mage. After all at a base level they're both homogeneous in the fact they are rewarded for the upkeep of a maintenance buff. Or is the fact that the manner in which they build up towards, and the reward itself different enough to seperate them. If so, why is the same not possible for Monk? You could do something as simple as executing x gcds in each fist stance with the order of the fist stances resulting in differing effects for TK if not a different skill altogether.

[Kalise]

Honestly, GL will always have a hard time being a mechanic so long as it's tied to any form of DPS increase, especially one that stacks up.

We see this with NIN, DRG and BLM where their maintenance "Mechanics" are non-interactive. Where you press a button to toggle it on and then you forget about it while you fight unless there happens to be a long transition phase (With the exception of NIN occasionally using a second finisher for their filler combo to refresh the duration)

If GL is tied to any form of DPS boost, then any kind of interaction that makes you concerned with spending it, will end up being mathed out if it's actually worth dropping that DPS buff for the use of the skill (Which tends to only be the case in times where actually stacking GL is trivial, i.e. StB with multi-Shoulder Tackle giving GL stacks)

As far as speed manipulation goes, it's a universally hated mechanic. Not only have Monks been vocal about how awful it is, but back when AST had cards, people often expressed distaste over receiving The Arrow because of how the shift in speed would mess with their rotations. Well, this is speed manipulation in combat.
One could propose a rework to the "Fists" that would enable people to select a speed of MNK they find the most comfortable. I.e. Earth is slow, Fire is medium and Wind is fast. With of course, the slower stances gaining increased %damage to compensate and make all 3 equal for DPS. This would also help alleviate the concern the devs have over the 4th GL stack and MNK becoming "Too fast" and having a rift between good and bad players widen since the bad players that cannot handle the high speed can instead opt for a lower speed that suits them.

If then, GL's speed and damage was then tied to Fist stances, there would be more flexibility in having GL be an actual resource, with the ability to spend it without having it compete with the raw damage gain you lose out on by having to restack it. Heck, you could even have GL stacks interact with Chakra too, something like "Gaining a GL stack while at max GL instead opens a Chakra" which would also open some more flexibility with Perfect Balance allowing it to be used to generate several Chakra quickly, in addition to adding in the thought process of whether you want to hold onto your GL stacks and generate guaranteed Chakra or if you want to spend them for TK and rely on just crits to generate Chakra while you build stacks back up (Which would likely be beneficial during periods of having crit buffs).

Though, if you wanted to keep GL stacks offering a passive benefit, you could use alternate stats aside from SkS or raw damage such as Crit chance (If Chakra is still reliant on crits...), heck, maybe even some inverse scaling where for example, at full GL you get guaranteed Chakra from executing Coeurl Form skills, but don't get any from random crits. While stacks take you from a 100% chance on weaponskill crit (0 stacks), 75% chance on weaponskill crit (1 stack), 50% chance on weaponskill crit (2 stacks) and 25% chance on weaponskill crit (3 stacks) before hitting the 4th and final stack.

In addition to this, you could also tweak Tornado Kick to where it's usable at any level of GL, but its damage scales up with each stack. So one can maintain low stacks if they wish to try and captialize on Crit buffs *Cough*Bring back Internal Release*Cough*

[Shurrikhan]

And I don't disagree with it being lucrative or something that can have benefits tied to. But based on what you can find as feedback with most posts from SB and onwards until they removed the slowdown from RoF, is that the slowdown was quite unwelcome, just like SSS's slowdown.

But just like how you may dislike Monk being centered solely around cooldowns, to the preclusion of any brawler style or interesting set-up, RoF was a slow-down forced upon us, rather than able to be flexibly and optionally integrated into rotation and thereby exploited as a part of Monk's unique advantages (e.g. flexible combos). Note that the same complaint was never used in connection to SB's TK usage; instead, TK rotations were villainized by their performance gap between high- and low-ping players and the clunkiness of their triple weave. The latter offered control and outside of meta comps was only a small gain at high SkS levels.

RoF lacked control and fit poorly with all but a couple SkS levels. The TK rotation, as might be expected for something utterly unintended, lacked polish in its buttonflow and stat balancing. But at least they each made use of the larger Monk kit when used properly. RoF allowed for perfect duration sync and a secondary rotation over its duration. TK allowed for RoW, stances, and PB to really mean something. That's what I want to see here: nothing going to waste.

Pushing the manipulation of speed as a Monk mechanic will at best be enjoyed to the same degree as the TK rotation -which itself was more enjoyed for the fact it made use of nearly all of monks skills...

And that's precisely what I want: to stop wasting the advantages the rest of Monk's kit would offer.

As far as TK just being Monk Foul. Why is that a problem? Homogeneity? If so where's your complaints about Dragoon and Black Mage.

My concern is that it would leave the rest of the kit's would-be advantages a pathetic vestigial waste for yet another expansion. The parts should be complementing each other, not left a hodgepodge of random tools with little synergy to each other.

Any homogeneity concerns about Dragoon or Black Mage would be found on Dragoon and Black Mage threads, respectively. Though, even there my concern has rarely ever been homogeneity, but rather making far better use of the existing kit rather than leaving something unpolished just to replace it later. None too shockingly, I've expressed dislike of both BotD and Enochian being mere maintenance gimmicks, offering that Enochian would more interestingly and usefully serve as a gameplay-adjusting cooldown (with F4 and B4 no longer locked behind it) and BotD as a gauge resource generated by skills, rather than just a cooldown, and again spent by Geirskogul or Nostrond.