Feedback on Expert Recipes:

[testname]

No, you thought wrong I completed it but it is at such a low amount compared to fails cause it you need to fish for procs. And please explain the "trick" cause from where I am standing the "trick" is fishing procs then using the best skills that benefit, then hoping for an excellent condition. But please enlighten me with thy "trick" behind it.

It's not that @trick - I dint want to tell what it is , and no, observe isn't it either

I love self learning

I saw people using this way of crafting, so it's not like I have invented wheel or some magic

mats cost 10 gill, you lose nothing by trying many different approaches to find it

proper mind set, and off you go ^_^

I do enjoy this

Also I am sorry if I didn't understand You before, looks like we look at it from different perspectives, I really don't want to fight over arguments

I wish You to have great day o/

[Caimie_Tsukino]

And your point is what? I already said a few times it is my opinion on it, and I do not want to see it start be used for making or obtaining actual items. That is my opinion. As of right now no it has no effect on anyone cause it is pointless to do unless you purely want the challenge, and if that is all they want to do with it or maybe add an achievement/title. I am perfectly okay with that. What I do not want to see is this becoming the norm for regular crafting. Do you understand what I am saying now?

I think it is funny you wasted your time making that for 0 reason. I already know of all those crafts and been making them this entire time. Try reading the comments in there entirety next time. And do not come into the forums telling people not to "complain" as you like to call it you are just making yourself look completely incompetent telling someone in the FORUMS not to complain/criticize something. That is well, just dumb.

Err... actually, that comment of mine wasn't specifically for you...

[Caimie_Tsukino]

There's room for tweaks and improvement though. I think two culprits are the Centered Proc (still hefty rng) and how reliant you end up on the Pliant buff. Saving nearly 50 CP is massive. Centered could almost be buffed to 100%, though that's certainly up for discussion.
I also feel our toolkit is a little too small now, which lowers the potential for niche intelligent choices and pushes us towards a priority system, where certain abilities are just miles better.

It's a good system and a step in the right direction. The rewards are indeed awful though.

This is exactly how I feel too. Currently, it's way too Pliant-centric. As long as you spam all your durab-recovery/saving skills whenever it pops, it pretty much allows you to spam naked Hasties and Rapids without much thoughts. So it kind of defeated the point of having Groundwork, Prep Touch, Prudent, Basic or even Precise (since Trick trumps Precise to have better chance for more durab recovery).

I have tried a few times using Patient as well, as it's ridiculously good when it doubles you from 5 to 10 IQ on a Centered Proc. Even if you lose the whole stack, as long as it's still early, you can still gamble your way back by spamming even more Patient.

So my thoughts are...
(1) For Pliant, perhaps instead of reducing CP by half, Pliant should just reduce CP by a fix value? And if the action uses fewer CP than the CP discount, then the action's CP is halved (this prevents too many free skills).
(2) For Centered, perhaps instead of buffing any skill by 25%, it should just buff Hasty and Rapid to 100%, but does not buff Patient (else it's overpowered)?

As for Sturdy, I like how it is at the moment. It's less impactful comparing to Pliant and Centered, but it's still pretty cool, especially when you get increase or decrease of tad bits of durab, making the whole thing more complex.

For those who are still unfamiliar with Sturdy, here are the funky new rules with the condition:
Under Sturdy, Hasty Touch will decrease durab by 5.
Under Sturdy, if WN (or WN2) is active, Hasty Touch will decrease durab by 3.
Under Sturdy, if Manip is active, Hasty Touch will NOT decrease any durab.
Under Sturdy, if WN (or WN2) and Manip are both active, Hasty Touch will actually increase durab by 2.

Originally, I tried to look into how it affects Groundwork/Prep Touch too, but now it seems pointless as we don't use those skills for this recipe anymore.

[GojuSuzi]

The issue is exactly that folk are looking for a "trick" or system, when the entire point is that there *isn't* one. You don't need to fish for procs, just react to whatever procs happen.

If you are waiting for a Pliant to pop and it doesn't come up, then your plan falls apart and you fail because of RNG. However, if you plan on every step being Normal, but are prepared to take advantage of a Pliant if it does proc, then you don't fail whether it pops or not. That's the real trick: plan for all Normals, but have one or two options to maximise usage of any non-Normals to make life easier. That's how I was doing it, and while I didn't rampage through to 500k, I was getting pretty consistent successes (fails normally because I was tired/distracted and accidentally math-failed into a Complete before finishing quality work).

[Cheetos]

I noticed a pattern here. Everytime and anytime RNG is involved in crafting, people go apeshit. Even though you don’t have to do them? Let the people like Caimie have their fun and their rewards.

Edit: I feel like if some of you guys want to be in your safe space, you’d be wise to stay in Master Recipes, not Expert Recipes, something these veteran people have been asking for a long time.

[Jojoya]

What I do not want to see is this becoming the norm for regular crafting.

Your anger at the difficulty of Expert recipes is misplaced. SE stated many times that Expert recipes were being designed specifically for those who like to fully pentameld their crafting gear and have been asking for more challenging recipes to tackle. They have no intent of making them the standard for normal crafting, which includes Master recipes.

Just ignore the Expert recipes. They aren't intended for those who want to casually craft and earn gil from it.

[Rath]

Some people just want a sure thing, I get that. But, there is no difficulty in copying a rotation. These don't allow for a set rotation no matter how well geared you are. So for those people, I understand the frustration.

They do, however, allow for a variety of methods to succeed. Now Kabooa has listed out one that he uses with repeated success, but I use a totally different method and am confident that I won't fail more then 1/10 synths.I do roughly 30 HT, and have been very comfortable relying on HT since HW������. I think the majority of the theory crafters that come up with base rotations each patch will have no difficulty with these recipes, if they choose to do them. Luckily, there are alternatives for everyone else that doesn't enjoy making choices each craft.

Also, fully penta-melded gear is not required, but I do use nearly maxed cp. Which does require facet mh/of.

[Kabooa]

Originally, I tried to look into how it affects Groundwork/Prep Touch too, but now it seems pointless as we don't use those skills for this recipe anymore.

Sturdy is a multiplicative 50%, so with Waste Not it's 25% Durability cost, rounded up. Sturdy is an effective 5-24 CP cost reduction (2-10 durability)

[NealSnow]

The fact is yes it's more rng then it is skill. Nobody will care who's at the #1 spot because it's 80% rng 20% skill. You ARE dependent on the new conditions. Wanna probe me wrong? Post a video of you getting the required quality without using the new conditions at all and let's see how it's not rng dependent.

Now it's fine if some people enjoy it being a coin toss but not everyone will. This post had feedback in the title not "praise these changes no criticism" criticism is feedback.

Now I love the new conditions and tbh I'd love them rolled into everyday crafting but make the really good ones rare so you can't reliably depend on them, like sturdy could be rarer then good but not as rare as excellent ect.

Overall I expect the devs will make some kinda adjustments but it'll be remained to see if it happens before the 3rd stage of restoration or not.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

The fact is yes it's more rng then it is skill. Nobody will care who's at the #1 spot because it's 80% rng 20% skill. You ARE dependent on the new conditions. Wanna probe me wrong? Post a video of you getting the required quality without using the new conditions at all and let's see how it's not rng dependent.

Now it's fine if some people enjoy it being a coin toss but not everyone will. This post had feedback in the title not "praise these changes no criticism" criticism is feedback.

Now I love the new conditions and tbh I'd love them rolled into everyday crafting but make the really good ones rare so you can't reliably depend on them, like sturdy could be rarer then good but not as rare as excellent ect.

Overall I expect the devs will make some kinda adjustments but it'll be remained to see if it happens before the 3rd stage of restoration or not.

Of course it's partial RNG-dependent. But 80% RNG 20% skill is absolute BS. The fact that I got this track record has already proven you wrong about the 80%/20% ratio:

3943
4161
4912
botched!
5093
-----> updated gear... from using i430 mainhand, hat, gloves and boots to all i460 left gear and i470 mainhand.
5475
6486
999 (pre-mature completion mistake)
6022
6486 (maxed quality)
6339
5477
5472
6486 (maxed quality)
6322
6486 (maxed quality)
6335
6002
5653
3798 (failed)
6486 (maxed quality)
6018
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
5856
4281 (failed)
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6310
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6220
6486 (maxed quality)
6102
6361
5635
6392
5657
6486 (maxed quality)
5803
6486 (maxed quality)
6050
6486 (maxed quality)

I am VERY consistently getting it above 5K or 6K. Most of the times, I'm not even close to 4.5K anymore. Thus, this must be either:
(1) 80% RNG 20% skill, but it's a very easy RNG game that automatically goes to your favor most of the times, or
(2) it's NOT that much RNG-dependent, and there is actually a way to really turn things to your advantage most of the times, or
(3) I'm just a freaking LUCKY STARRRR!!!!