Feedback on Expert Recipes:

[Caimie_Tsukino]

The fact is yes it's more rng then it is skill. Nobody will care who's at the #1 spot because it's 80% rng 20% skill.

Actually, you're wrong about another thing -- The #1 spot does not belong to whoever has the most skill or the most luck. It belongs to whoever is the most hardworking in the upcoming 8 days. With my laziness, I doubt I'll even make it top 10 on my server, LOL!

[Jojoya]

The fact is yes it's more rng then it is skill. Nobody will care who's at the #1 spot because it's 80% rng 20% skill. You ARE dependent on the new conditions. Wanna probe me wrong? Post a video of you getting the required quality without using the new conditions at all and let's see how it's not rng dependent.

Part of skill is being able to react to random conditions better than the next person.

If there were no random conditions, there would be no skill to display here. Someone would come up with a macro guaranteed to work as long as you had X Craftsmanship, Y Control and Z CP.

That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. How about you try the same thing using your head. Just because you say you think something is stupid, does not make you mad, where did you even get that idea from. If I am just playing something then I come across something I find that I find ridiculous I might just say oh, that's stupid. That does not automatically make you mad. The level of incompetence it takes to type that with a strait face. You and the others with the "mad" comments just cannot come up with an actual retort so you cherry pick one line out of a short paragraph. What exactly was your point to even posting this?

See? You're angry again. You're attacking posters using inflammatory word phrases instead of discussing the topic in a neutral, constructive fashion.

[Dan4077]

Part of skill is being able to react to random conditions better than the next person.

If there were no random conditions, there would be no skill to display here. Someone would come up with a macro guaranteed to work as long as you had X Craftsmanship, Y Control and Z CP.


See? You're angry again. You're attacking posters using inflammatory word phrases instead of discussing the topic in a neutral, constructive fashion.

You mean like your very first post you made to me where you just had to add the anger bit? Let me correct you, it isn't anger it is called mocking and belittling trolls. Why did I do that though? I did it because they did not do anything in a neutral constructive matter as you like to call it now did they? They cherry picked 1 line that I explained more right after to try to use to make me look bad. So no, I have no respectful conversation to have with them. If you actually comment on what I post instead of coming at me with the onslaught of verbs I will gladly discuss it in a polite matter. Sadly not many have bothered attempting it. Try it yourself just ditch the words like "anger".

[ElazulHP]

So after calming my rage I went back and was able to figure out a "priority rotation" that worked for me. Been able to max out the expert recipe a couple of times now. Still comes down to RNG which is annoying but 2/3 times I can get it to 5k+ which is good enough for me at this point. I just wish there was a way to make this challenging without resorting to RNG because tbh it's pretty frustrating at times.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

So after calming my rage I went back and was able to figure out a "priority rotation" that worked for me. Been able to max out the expert recipe a couple of times now. Still comes down to RNG which is annoying but 2/3 times I can get it to 5k+ which is good enough for me at this point. I just wish there was a way to make this challenging without resorting to RNG because tbh it's pretty frustrating at times.

There are definitely a lot of "priorities" and even small little tricks to it, I guarantee ya. You can see how my track record is improving, which means I'm gradually acquiring the knowledge to make the right decisions during what condition with what buff at what durab. Keep it up, and you'll get better and better!

Anyway, had lots of fun today... The process itself is already pretty satisfying. I'm heading to bed now! zzzZZZ

[Kabooa]

So, let me begin by saying I am one of the "RNG is not difficulty" folks. I am pretty opposed to a craft being determined by 'RNG'.

However, recall that outside collectibles, every single craft is a binary pass/fail. Collectibles themselves fall on a gradual scale and are not binary pass/fails, even if the current state of collectibles makes pre-100% the same as a fail.

The Expert Craft is not a binary pass/fail, and the nature of how it changes its "Condition" state has created several methods to approach it. The priority system I listed in the other thread is pretty time inefficient and I imagine others are finding ways to keep step counts in a 40-60 range.

I need to re-emphasize this part

Expert Recipes are collectibles and are not a binary pass/fail. You get what you get, unlike standard crafting where it's either HQ or worthless.

The removal of "Excellent" also removes a 'bad' scenario from the pool. In other words - Every RNG state in the Expert Process is a positive one, with the exception of centered which can be neutral.

The current system is ultimately about CP management, and I imagine as more people work with it, we'll find more efficient priority systems. If the procs were meaningless and you didn't need them, then you're just back to macro crafting.

Resource management is a skill.

Recognizing your quality slam windows is a skill.

Risk evaluation is a skill.

If anything has been made apparent by Expert recipes, it's that we've been stat-crashing our way to victory since basically Heavensward. The "fail 3 times and reclaim" RNG of ARR doesn't apply here. The ability to extend and retain CP and the encouragement to abuse the common Condition states allows for stupid rebounding potential. Blind slamming progress/quality windows is what screws up the process, AKA what we've been doing this whole time.

The only pre-requisite I see for moving this to the main crafting recipes is that the binary pass/fail of HQ/NQ needs to go in favor of the gradual scaling reward. There'd be less to worry about if the "HQ mark" was at 30% quality, and then every break point past that just improves it further in a non-escalating fashion.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

So, let me begin by saying I am one of the "RNG is not difficulty" folks. I am pretty opposed to a craft being determined by 'RNG'.

However, recall that outside collectibles, every single craft is a binary pass/fail. Collectibles themselves fall on a gradual scale and are not binary pass/fails, even if the current state of collectibles makes pre-100% the same as a fail.

The Expert Craft is not a binary pass/fail, and the nature of how it changes its "Condition" state has created several methods to approach it. The priority system I listed in the other thread is pretty time inefficient and I imagine others are finding ways to keep step counts in a 40-60 range.

I need to re-emphasize this part

Expert Recipes are collectibles and are not a binary pass/fail. You get what you get, unlike standard crafting where it's either HQ or worthless.

The removal of "Excellent" also removes a 'bad' scenario from the pool. In other words - Every RNG state in the Expert Process is a positive one, with the exception of centered which can be neutral.

The current system is ultimately about CP management, and I imagine as more people work with it, we'll find more efficient priority systems. If the procs were meaningless and you didn't need them, then you're just back to macro crafting.

Resource management is a skill.

Recognizing your quality slam windows is a skill.

Risk evaluation is a skill.

If anything has been made apparent by Expert recipes, it's that we've been stat-crashing our way to victory since basically Heavensward. The "fail 3 times and reclaim" RNG of ARR doesn't apply here. The ability to extend and retain CP and the encouragement to abuse the common Condition states allows for stupid rebounding potential. Blind slamming progress/quality windows is what screws up the process, AKA what we've been doing this whole time.

The only pre-requisite I see for moving this to the main crafting recipes is that the binary pass/fail of HQ/NQ needs to go in favor of the gradual scaling reward. There'd be less to worry about if the "HQ mark" was at 30% quality, and then every break point past that just improves it further in a non-escalating fashion.

Well said! These Expert Recipes are vastly different from the ARR's "3 Hasty fails and you're gone" scenario. Due to the rather lengthy crafting process, you can actually afford some good amounts of Hasty/Rapid fails, and also chances of NOT getting a particular essential condition is low. Of course, the downside is that it takes quite long to finish 1 craft. But I think it's alright.

I also like the 4500 /5K /6K margins. I think they are quite well-set, so as to better translate the value of a finished product into appropriate amounts of scrips.

[Sarevok_Thordin]

I am utterly fed up already of the insane RNG required to hit the minimum collectability.

I thought we moved on from HW Hasty Touch Fests, now it's back.

[Hasrat]

I still think rng was probably the only way to go for adding difficulty, something that players have to work around, rather than work through. This is hopefully only the first demonstration of what rng effects they can bring to the table.

But without any rng, all you have is "What's the rotation?" And that's not very difficult.

[Ryaz]

On the bright side, despite the RNG either loving you or hating you, at least the mats are easy to get and aren't extremely expensive, so you don't risk losing hundreds of thousands of gil on a failed craft. Just a lot of time.