SCH needs help

[Brandedblade]

You will never hold collective ever lol it's so bad to hold. you one tick it during an OFF global and never hold it.

We have made this point. It's the fact you never hold it that makes it weaker then Sacred Soil. When you do not hold it it becomes weaker then Soil because you loose one of the effects after 3 seconds while the other persists. Sacred Soil does BOTH effects at half the cooldown. And as I've repeated time and again the dps loss of not using energy Drain is mitigated not only by the additional healing potency you're saving for later with the fae gauge, but by the fact you're theoretically reducing the gcd healing your cohealer has to do, which gives back more potency then you lose.

[Volkaj]

We have made this point. It's the fact you never hold it that makes it weaker then Sacred Soil. When you do not hold it it becomes weaker then Soil because you loose one of the effects after 3 seconds while the other persists. Sacred Soil does BOTH effects at half the cooldown. And as I've repeated time and again the dps loss of not using energy Drain is mitigated not only by the additional healing potency you're saving for later with the fae gauge, but by the fact you're theoretically reducing the gcd healing your cohealer has to do, which gives back more potency then you lose.

Stronger/weaker in terms of healing potency only (and stronger only in 2 very specific scenarios).
You'd get Fae Gauge anyway if you used ED instead, so that is irrelevant.

To make things clear, when mitigating one hit (most common):
Sacred Soil: 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 150p DPS cost
Collective Unconscious (Diurnal): 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 0 DPS cost

The two scenarios where SS is stronger (healing-wise) than CU:
- Mitigating multiple hits (E4S Tumult, LL Splash).
- Using SS after the hit for one extra HoT tick (600p total healing).

As I've repeated time and time again, SS' opportunity cost makes it worse than CU in most cases.
Unless you're running Noct AST. In which case your cohealer is WHM or an AST, and SS isn't in the picture.

[Lilseph]

To make things clear, when mitigating one hit (most common):
Sacred Soil: 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 150p DPS cost
Collective Unconscious (Diurnal): 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 0 DPS cost

Genuinely don't understand why you're trying to compare Diurnal CU to Sacred Soil instead of Nocturnal CU when they both fill completely different niches. Especially since you'll mostly see Diurnal AST being paired with SCH anyway, it's a little unfair to compare the two complements.

[Volkaj]

Genuinely don't understand why you're trying to compare Diurnal CU to Sacred Soil instead of Nocturnal CU when they both fill completely different niches. Especially since you'll mostly see Diurnal AST being paired with SCH anyway, it's a little unfair to compare the two complements.

I find it hard to believe Diurnal CU and Sacred Soil fill completely different niches if they have almost the same effect for mitigating a single hit (most common use case).

I'm not comparing against Nocturnal CU because:
- SS is clearly better in the single-hit case, since it also heals the party.
- You're not gonna have a Noct AST + SCH pair, since the toolkit synergy is atrocious. There is no planning question of whether the SCH should use SS, then AST should use CU only if SS is on CD.
- Diurnal AST is all-around better unless you absolutely need Noct AST shields, and can't get by with Neutral Sect.

[Lilseph]

I find it hard to believe Diurnal CU and Sacred Soil fill completely different niches if they have almost the same effect for mitigating a single hit (most common use case).

I'm not comparing against Nocturnal CU because:
- SS is clearly better in the single-hit case, since it also heals the party.
- You're not gonna have a Noct AST + SCH pair, since the toolkit synergy is atrocious. There is no planning question of whether the SCH should use SS, then AST should use CU only if SS is on CD.
- Diurnal AST is all-around better unless you absolutely need Noct AST shields, and can't get by with Neutral Sect.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

As for the niche thing, it's mostly to do with what its meant to substitute in lieu of having a WHM (for Diurnal), and SCH (for Nocturnal). In Diurnal Sect, Diurnal CU is there as a substitute for both Asylum and Temperance on a much shorter recast. In Nocturnal Sect, Noct CU is a substitute for Sacred Soil but on a longer recast timer. Both are inferior to what they're trying to substitute but are still extremely usable and valuable. It's the same deal with Noct Helios stacked with Noct Opposition being similar to a Deployed Critlo but on a shorter recast.