SCH needs help

[Sighearth]

yea but we are comparing ogcd vs ogcd. ast have better ogcds period

[Brandedblade]

Well the problem with half the cd being that that would cost you 300 potency vs astros completley free collective. or even asylum which has a small weaving cost it still does way more i'd argue since it buffs healing actions like indom AND is a heal overtime on a relatively short CD. Soil is strong sure but i'd still argue its the worst of the three healers simply because it costs SO MUCH when the other two healers get one for FREE (or near free)

Trading damage for healing is a thing for both whm and sch. AST only doesn't trade damage for healing because its goal is to buff the group for most of its damage contribution as its own personal damage is lower then the other two healers.

As we discussed earlier, mitigation tends to be better then healing so I would argue that sacred and collective are both somewhat better then asylum. Healing potency increase is a good thing, but I could also argue that theres more situations where that healing magic potency goes to waste as opposed to the damage mitigation.

One more factor I'll bring up with Collective vs Sacred Soil, Collective required you to sacrifice one of the two effects if you want to use the skill without loosing damage. You loose the Damage mitigation after the server tick in Diurnal, and the regen after the server tick in Nocturnal. If you want to use both effects, you must continue to channel it and the longer you channel the buff the more maelfics you loose. And thus the more damage. Sacred Soil grants both effects for its entire duration with only the initial cost.

[Brandedblade]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

he healing in the ultimate fight sch is outclassed by BOTH other healers btw they're also outclassed in damage in the highest scenarios (except aoe they outdo astro on aoe damage) already so chadding as sch is not good healing alot is also not good. (as if they can heal alot anyway lol)

The ultimate fight is MORE than good enough for Data regarding the healers and sch is under performing hard.

So one very specific fight is enough data? When theres several other tiers and thus more opportunities for sch to shine?

[KDSilver]

"outperformed" by 3k.
But you seem to forget some things like
- overheal, which can happen a lot from regen and bursty heals (Earthly Star, Medica II, Cure III)
- healing provided by skills like assize for example which are used on cooldown for damage
- mitigation/passive mitigation which doesn't work the same

It'll be easier for ast/whm to overheal, but it doesn't really matter that much unless that mean you pressed too many GCD for healing that could have been DPS instead

Besides, in organised group, we know how potent Earthly star for example can be to cover damage alone. So why would a scholar pushes more healing skill just to increase its HPS ?

Scholar never was the king of HPs. And yet, it used to be called OP.
You don't need to make crazy HPs in this game to be a good healer. You need to heal what need to be healed to survived.
Your example doesn't prove SCH is underperforming at all.


The day healing with a scholar will make a huge difference and you, as whm/ast, you have to do a lot more to cover its "weaknesses", or he has to trade a LOT more damage compare to the other, maybe we'll have to see what's wrong.
But that's actually not currently the case.
Besides, as already said, that's not enough data. As pointed earlier, that's good to have a number, but what's inside that number. Hps have several ressources tied to it.

[Crushnight]

how can it be better than collective when its literally objectively worse.
(0)

Sacred soil
Creates a designated area in which party members will only suffer 90% of all damage inflicted.
Duration: 15s
Additional Effect: Regen
Cure Potency: 100
Overall healing done is 500 potency
Additional Effect: Increases Faerie Gauge by 10
Aetherflow Gauge Cost: 1
Has an 8y radius and can be placed at ranged.
All that at a cost of 150 dps potency and slight hp/mp recovery from losing a single energy drain.

Collective Unconsciousness (Diurnal)

Diurnal Sect Effect: Reduces damage taken by 10% and applies Wheel of Fortune to self and any party members who enter
Duration: 18s (this is how long you can channel it thereby losing a gcd of malefic or combust every 2.5s for the 10% dmg reduction)
Wheel of Fortune Effect (Diurnal): Regen
Cure Potency: 100
Duration: 15s
If fully channelled (never ever do this outside boss jumps) can last to 33s
Overall healing done 500 potency(min) - 1100 (max, you practically never see this)
8y radius based around the caster
This is free if used between gcds and cancelled the channelling before next gcd else enjoy your 250 dps potency or god forbid missing your DoT which would cost up to 360 potency of the 600 DoT potency+ 5x malefics at 1250 potency.

Collective Unconsciousness (nocturnal, sch's supposed competition as a shield healer)

Nocturnal Sect Effect: Grants healing over time and applies Wheel of Fortune to self and any party members who enter
Cure Potency: 100
Duration: 18s (again the timer allowed to channel it to keep up the regen effect)
Overall healing done 100 (min) - 600 (max, again you'll never practically see this outside big boss jumps)
Wheel of Fortune Effect (Nocturnal): Reduces damage taken by 10%
Duration: 20s
Can last up to 38s max if fully channelled.
This remains on for duration no matter where players go or death.
8y radius based around the caster.
Again free to use if used and cancelled between 2 gcds.

So sacred soil
-gets to be placed where ever you want allowing stuff like E8s Light Rampant to be mitigated and healed for those doing 1st towers/baits etc whereas Ast has to pick which.
-doesn't cancel any action including movement to get its effect
-heals on par with baseline(and I'm using baseline because this is the most practical use of CU with min cost) Diurnal CU while providing 12s longer of 10% dmg reduction.
-heals 400 potency better than baseline Nocturnal while having 5s less on the 10% dmg reduction that is also placed rather than free roam that Nocturnal has.
-gives 10 fairy gauge which is a fey blessing (ogcds heal) or an extra tick of fairy tether.
- at the cost of a 150 potency energy drain and some hp/mp recovery.

Yea no Sacred soil is better hands down the cost to Ast to make either CUs better is way higher than the peanuts that is 1 ED (min 180+500 3 DoT ticks and 2x malefic up to 750 of 3x malefics).

[YusiKha]

Quick note - Soil's heal is 600pot, as it instantly applies its first tick regardless of server ticks.

[Volkaj]

So sacred soil
-gets to be placed where ever you want allowing stuff like E8s Light Rampant to be mitigated and healed for those doing 1st towers/baits etc whereas Ast has to pick which.
-doesn't cancel any action including movement to get its effect
-heals on par with baseline(and I'm using baseline because this is the most practical use of CU with min cost) Diurnal CU while providing 12s longer of 10% dmg reduction.
-heals 400 potency better than baseline Nocturnal while having 5s less on the 10% dmg reduction that is also placed rather than free roam that Nocturnal has.
-gives 10 fairy gauge which is a fey blessing (ogcds heal) or an extra tick of fairy tether.
- at the cost of a 150 potency energy drain and some hp/mp recovery.

Yea no Sacred soil is better hands down the cost to Ast to make either CUs better is way higher than the peanuts that is 1 ED (min 180+500 3 DoT ticks and 2x malefic up to 750 of 3x malefics).

Assuming you just snapshot CU:
- Regen is snapshotted at 500 potency, just need to be close to the party once for the effect to apply. This is really common; party is together then needs to split far away for mechanics. For Soil you need the party to stay in it. Snapshot is better than placed.
- CU can be weaved just like SS.
- In continuous mitigation SS > CU. That said, SS still has a DPS opportunity cost, and continuous mitigation is available to nearly every job at no cost (Reprisal, Addle, Tactitian, Fey Illumination, Temperance, CU...).
- SS > Noct CU. But Noct is only needed if you absolutely need shields to survive something (and can't rely on Neutral)...
- SS technically has 600 potency, but to use that first tick requires your target(s) not to be topped when you drop it, which usually isn't the case when you're trying to mitigate a single big hit.
- SS has half the cooldown.

I wouldn't outright say that CU is better than SS in all situations.
But most of the time the opportunity DPS cost that SS has will make it worse than CU.

[Whichi]

Sacred soil
Creates a designated area in which party members will only suffer 90% of all damage inflicted.
Duration: 15s
Additional Effect: Regen
Cure Potency: 100
Overall healing done is 500 potency
Additional Effect: Increases Faerie Gauge by 10
Aetherflow Gauge Cost: 1
Has an 8y radius and can be placed at ranged.
All that at a cost of 150 dps potency and slight hp/mp recovery from losing a single energy drain.

Collective Unconsciousness (Diurnal)

Diurnal Sect Effect: Reduces damage taken by 10% and applies Wheel of Fortune to self and any party members who enter
Duration: 18s (this is how long you can channel it thereby losing a gcd of malefic or combust every 2.5s for the 10% dmg reduction)
Wheel of Fortune Effect (Diurnal): Regen
Cure Potency: 100
Duration: 15s
If fully channelled (never ever do this outside boss jumps) can last to 33s
Overall healing done 500 potency(min) - 1100 (max, you practically never see this)
8y radius based around the caster
This is free if used between gcds and cancelled the channelling before next gcd else enjoy your 250 dps potency or god forbid missing your DoT which would cost up to 360 potency of the 600 DoT potency+ 5x malefics at 1250 potency.

Collective Unconsciousness (nocturnal, sch's supposed competition as a shield healer)

Nocturnal Sect Effect: Grants healing over time and applies Wheel of Fortune to self and any party members who enter
Cure Potency: 100
Duration: 18s (again the timer allowed to channel it to keep up the regen effect)
Overall healing done 100 (min) - 600 (max, again you'll never practically see this outside big boss jumps)
Wheel of Fortune Effect (Nocturnal): Reduces damage taken by 10%
Duration: 20s
Can last up to 38s max if fully channelled.
This remains on for duration no matter where players go or death.
8y radius based around the caster.
Again free to use if used and cancelled between 2 gcds.

So sacred soil
-gets to be placed where ever you want allowing stuff like E8s Light Rampant to be mitigated and healed for those doing 1st towers/baits etc whereas Ast has to pick which.
-doesn't cancel any action including movement to get its effect
-heals on par with baseline(and I'm using baseline because this is the most practical use of CU with min cost) Diurnal CU while providing 12s longer of 10% dmg reduction.
-heals 400 potency better than baseline Nocturnal while having 5s less on the 10% dmg reduction that is also placed rather than free roam that Nocturnal has.
-gives 10 fairy gauge which is a fey blessing (ogcds heal) or an extra tick of fairy tether.
- at the cost of a 150 potency energy drain and some hp/mp recovery.

Yea no Sacred soil is better hands down the cost to Ast to make either CUs better is way higher than the peanuts that is 1 ED (min 180+500 3 DoT ticks and 2x malefic up to 750 of 3x malefics).

its not better. it costs you too much damage to be good sorry i just disagree. its simply "okay" and will stay in the same spot its been in since STOrmblood its rarely used because its not good in most situations theres just always a better option.

"outperformed" by 3k.
But you seem to forget some things like
- overheal, which can happen a lot from regen and bursty heals (Earthly Star, Medica II, Cure III)
- healing provided by skills like assize for example which are used on cooldown for damage
- mitigation/passive mitigation which doesn't work the same

It'll be easier for ast/whm to overheal, but it doesn't really matter that much unless that mean you pressed too many GCD for healing that could have been DPS instead

Besides, in organised group, we know how potent Earthly star for example can be to cover damage alone. So why would a scholar pushes more healing skill just to increase its HPS ?

Scholar never was the king of HPs. And yet, it used to be called OP.
You don't need to make crazy HPs in this game to be a good healer. You need to heal what need to be healed to survived.
Your example doesn't prove SCH is underperforming at all.


The day healing with a scholar will make a huge difference and you, as whm/ast, you have to do a lot more to cover its "weaknesses", or he has to trade a LOT more damage compare to the other, maybe we'll have to see what's wrong.
But that's actually not currently the case.
Besides, as already said, that's not enough data. As pointed earlier, that's good to have a number, but what's inside that number. Hps have several ressources tied to it.

That isnt HPs that is healing which includes shielding. Overheal wouldnt be that huge of a difference in a 17 minute fight. Also yes scholar for every single patch in every expansion until shadowbringers was the king of healing done and now its not so im not sure where you're getting that from lol the fairy was extremely broken.

[Volkaj]

its not better. it costs you too much damage to be good sorry i just disagree. its simply "okay" and will stay in the same spot its been in since STOrmblood its rarely used because its not good in most situations theres just always a better option.

ShB's SS replaced SB's Indom as SCH's go-to Aetherflow AoE heal.

Stormblood: 500p Indom, 10% SS
Shadowbringers: 400p Indom, 10% + 600p (HoT total) SS

Does SCH has better tools available? Yes: Whispering Dawn, Recitation + Indom, Seraph, Fey Blessing.
But SS has a much lower cooldown than most of these, and mitigates as well.

[Crushnight]

Quick note - Soil's heal is 600pot, as it instantly applies its first tick regardless of server ticks.

Ty for correction ^^ so it's better than Diurnal baseline HoT and as good as maximum Nocturnal HoT even more in sacred soil's favor.