SCH needs help

[Volkaj]

Let's take a look.

Oh dear! You've fallen for one of the classic blunders! The worst comp is the one without a scholar!
Oh no what's this? SCH actually performs worst of the 3 healers in terms of rDPS output?

I personally don't care too much about numbers as long as the jobs are fun to play, but I have to point out here that that AST + WHM comp spread is really narrow. This is probably due to lower sample size, which makes the data less useful.

Another thing to point out about that graph is that it shows that the average AST + WHM comp is the best (assuming we can trust the small sample size), and that WHM + SCH beats AST + SCH.

[Volkaj]

So sacred soil
-gets to be placed where ever you want allowing stuff like E8s Light Rampant to be mitigated and healed for those doing 1st towers/baits etc whereas Ast has to pick which.
-doesn't cancel any action including movement to get its effect
-heals on par with baseline(and I'm using baseline because this is the most practical use of CU with min cost) Diurnal CU while providing 12s longer of 10% dmg reduction.
-heals 400 potency better than baseline Nocturnal while having 5s less on the 10% dmg reduction that is also placed rather than free roam that Nocturnal has.
-gives 10 fairy gauge which is a fey blessing (ogcds heal) or an extra tick of fairy tether.
- at the cost of a 150 potency energy drain and some hp/mp recovery.

Yea no Sacred soil is better hands down the cost to Ast to make either CUs better is way higher than the peanuts that is 1 ED (min 180+500 3 DoT ticks and 2x malefic up to 750 of 3x malefics).

Assuming you just snapshot CU:
- Regen is snapshotted at 500 potency, just need to be close to the party once for the effect to apply. This is really common; party is together then needs to split far away for mechanics. For Soil you need the party to stay in it. Snapshot is better than placed.
- CU can be weaved just like SS.
- In continuous mitigation SS > CU. That said, SS still has a DPS opportunity cost, and continuous mitigation is available to nearly every job at no cost (Reprisal, Addle, Tactitian, Fey Illumination, Temperance, CU...).
- SS > Noct CU. But Noct is only needed if you absolutely need shields to survive something (and can't rely on Neutral)...
- SS technically has 600 potency, but to use that first tick requires your target(s) not to be topped when you drop it, which usually isn't the case when you're trying to mitigate a single big hit.
- SS has half the cooldown.

I wouldn't outright say that CU is better than SS in all situations.
But most of the time the opportunity DPS cost that SS has will make it worse than CU.

[Whichi]

Sacred soil
Creates a designated area in which party members will only suffer 90% of all damage inflicted.
Duration: 15s
Additional Effect: Regen
Cure Potency: 100
Overall healing done is 500 potency
Additional Effect: Increases Faerie Gauge by 10
Aetherflow Gauge Cost: 1
Has an 8y radius and can be placed at ranged.
All that at a cost of 150 dps potency and slight hp/mp recovery from losing a single energy drain.

Collective Unconsciousness (Diurnal)

Diurnal Sect Effect: Reduces damage taken by 10% and applies Wheel of Fortune to self and any party members who enter
Duration: 18s (this is how long you can channel it thereby losing a gcd of malefic or combust every 2.5s for the 10% dmg reduction)
Wheel of Fortune Effect (Diurnal): Regen
Cure Potency: 100
Duration: 15s
If fully channelled (never ever do this outside boss jumps) can last to 33s
Overall healing done 500 potency(min) - 1100 (max, you practically never see this)
8y radius based around the caster
This is free if used between gcds and cancelled the channelling before next gcd else enjoy your 250 dps potency or god forbid missing your DoT which would cost up to 360 potency of the 600 DoT potency+ 5x malefics at 1250 potency.

Collective Unconsciousness (nocturnal, sch's supposed competition as a shield healer)

Nocturnal Sect Effect: Grants healing over time and applies Wheel of Fortune to self and any party members who enter
Cure Potency: 100
Duration: 18s (again the timer allowed to channel it to keep up the regen effect)
Overall healing done 100 (min) - 600 (max, again you'll never practically see this outside big boss jumps)
Wheel of Fortune Effect (Nocturnal): Reduces damage taken by 10%
Duration: 20s
Can last up to 38s max if fully channelled.
This remains on for duration no matter where players go or death.
8y radius based around the caster.
Again free to use if used and cancelled between 2 gcds.

So sacred soil
-gets to be placed where ever you want allowing stuff like E8s Light Rampant to be mitigated and healed for those doing 1st towers/baits etc whereas Ast has to pick which.
-doesn't cancel any action including movement to get its effect
-heals on par with baseline(and I'm using baseline because this is the most practical use of CU with min cost) Diurnal CU while providing 12s longer of 10% dmg reduction.
-heals 400 potency better than baseline Nocturnal while having 5s less on the 10% dmg reduction that is also placed rather than free roam that Nocturnal has.
-gives 10 fairy gauge which is a fey blessing (ogcds heal) or an extra tick of fairy tether.
- at the cost of a 150 potency energy drain and some hp/mp recovery.

Yea no Sacred soil is better hands down the cost to Ast to make either CUs better is way higher than the peanuts that is 1 ED (min 180+500 3 DoT ticks and 2x malefic up to 750 of 3x malefics).

its not better. it costs you too much damage to be good sorry i just disagree. its simply "okay" and will stay in the same spot its been in since STOrmblood its rarely used because its not good in most situations theres just always a better option.

"outperformed" by 3k.
But you seem to forget some things like
- overheal, which can happen a lot from regen and bursty heals (Earthly Star, Medica II, Cure III)
- healing provided by skills like assize for example which are used on cooldown for damage
- mitigation/passive mitigation which doesn't work the same

It'll be easier for ast/whm to overheal, but it doesn't really matter that much unless that mean you pressed too many GCD for healing that could have been DPS instead

Besides, in organised group, we know how potent Earthly star for example can be to cover damage alone. So why would a scholar pushes more healing skill just to increase its HPS ?

Scholar never was the king of HPs. And yet, it used to be called OP.
You don't need to make crazy HPs in this game to be a good healer. You need to heal what need to be healed to survived.
Your example doesn't prove SCH is underperforming at all.


The day healing with a scholar will make a huge difference and you, as whm/ast, you have to do a lot more to cover its "weaknesses", or he has to trade a LOT more damage compare to the other, maybe we'll have to see what's wrong.
But that's actually not currently the case.
Besides, as already said, that's not enough data. As pointed earlier, that's good to have a number, but what's inside that number. Hps have several ressources tied to it.

That isnt HPs that is healing which includes shielding. Overheal wouldnt be that huge of a difference in a 17 minute fight. Also yes scholar for every single patch in every expansion until shadowbringers was the king of healing done and now its not so im not sure where you're getting that from lol the fairy was extremely broken.

[Brandedblade]

its not better. it costs you too much damage to be good sorry i just disagree. its simply "okay" and will stay in the same spot its been in since STOrmblood its rarely used because its not good in most situations theres just always a better option.



That isnt HPs that is healing which includes shielding. Overheal wouldnt be that huge of a difference in a 17 minute fight. Also yes scholar for every single patch in every expansion until shadowbringers was the king of healing done and now its not so im not sure where you're getting that from lol the fairy was extremely broken.

Yeah, your arguement was invalid the moment you said its staying in the same spot it was in stormblood. Even if the mitigation goes to waste its 600 potency every 30 seconds at only a small potency cost. Even if the heal goes to waste its group mitigation available every 30 seconds at only a small potency cost.

Which again, if sacred soil does enough healing/mitigation to prevent the cohealer from having to pop a gcd heal, then it made up for up to double the potency loss of not using the energy Drain. This fact also applies to excog and Indom if they arent used with Recitation. Just because there's free mitigation from other classes doesn't inherently nerf the value of sacred soil, infact it can stack with the mitigation AND heal the party.

Plus you keep forgetting that every Aetherflow heal has an additional 375ish single target heal and/or 225ish aoe.

[Whichi]

Yeah, your arguement was invalid the moment you said its staying in the same spot it was in stormblood. Even if the mitigation goes to waste its 600 potency every 30 seconds at only a small potency cost. Even if the heal goes to waste its group mitigation available every 30 seconds at only a small potency cost.

Which again, if sacred soil does enough healing/mitigation to prevent the cohealer from having to pop a gcd heal, then it made up for up to double the potency loss of not using the energy Drain. This fact also applies to excog and Indom if they arent used with Recitation. Just because there's free mitigation from other classes doesn't inherently nerf the value of sacred soil, infact it can stack with the mitigation AND heal the party.

Plus you keep forgetting that every Aetherflow heal has an additional 375ish single target heal and/or 225ish aoe.

Im not forgetting anything energy drain also applys to faerie gauge not just healing actons.. Plus my point saying that its going to stay in the same spot as stormblood means that it was rarely used. The point is that it is not NEEDED theres always something else that will get the job done better. Also you will RARELY get every player to get all ticks of soil for the full 600 potency or there will be overheal because you want to mitigate something. The point is anytime you think you can use "sacred soil" The reality is that there is a better cheaper option that isnt sacred soil. Lilys star any astro off gcd recitation abilites fairy skills. Sacred soil is just not needed. Even when i run shiva SAVAGE the hardest current fight as SCH i never use any atherflow healing(aside from recitation indoms or excogs) because its not really needed. its just extra and totally wasteful causing you to lose damage in most scenarios.

Which again, if sacred soil does enough healing/mitigation to prevent the cohealer from having to pop a gcd heal, then it made up for up to double the potency loss of not using the energy Drain. .

it's not double the potency lost Energy drain is 150 potency glare the absolute highest healer offensive GCD is 300 so no its not "more thandouble" its exactly half. and since energy drain is an OFF gcd its actually an even bigger deal



I'm not even saying sacred soil is like the worst thing ever or something. I HONESTLY believe that soil is fine as is its a very niche ability that has some unique uses but VERY few. The current problem with scholar is that i have to lose damage to cast every off gcd i have. why do i have to cast my 6 faerie spells??? whispering dawn previously was amazing at the end of stormblood and now i have to lose damage to cast like 6 fairy buttons? not to mention fey blessing + tether dont work wiht seraph so its extremely clunky in that i'd have to reapply it or it gets cancelled or even worse sometimes seraph just straight up EATS my spells?? thats so awful. These spells are also not even like spectacular they're so mediocre where is my earthly star spell? Earthly star is crazy powerful and doesnt have any real clunk or jank with it like scholars mediocre fairy spells that make me LOSE damage everytime i want to cast them.

[technole]

theres some really great points here OP. Don't listen to anyone telling you SCH isnt lacking statistics and data atm PROVE that scholar is by far the worst healer. World first shiva extreme even went ahead to skip SCH and used ASTRO / WHM in their group comp. The facts are that SCH has to give away 150 potency for every heal that isnt recitation and whm / astro do not WHM loses 300 for each set of lilys they use but in some fights that can even be a gain if theres multiple targets OR downtime. On top of glare / dia being insane. ASTRO doesnt lose ANYTHING to weave healing. SCH's tank healing is abysmal now and their mitigation is SUBPAR compared to astro.

You're being overly dramatic.

WHM/SCH was world second, and that group, TPS on Gilgamesh was within 1% of the world first clear. So to make an argument like that is rather worthless.

You might as well not heal at all if you want to keep throwing potency loss on every scholar heal, the fact remains Soil is the best healing oGCD in the game with its potency. Scholar does excel on healing the beginning of any fight with full fairy resources compared to WHM with no lilies grown yet.

[QooEr]

bruh sacred soil is literally the best heal sch has. it has the highest potency (it even heals more than lustrate on single target if you place it on top of them) and it mitigates too...

you could argue a lot of skills arent "needed" cuz you can clear content without them. i cast helios/medica/succor once in a blue moon but it has its uses. you could clear everything with just gcd heals and no ogcds too so clearly ogcds arent needed either right

and yes cohealers exist so you dont have to use all your resources all the time, thats nothing new.

[Crushnight]

its not better. it costs you too much damage to be good sorry i just disagree. its simply "okay" and will stay in the same spot its been in since STOrmblood its rarely used because its not good in most situations theres just always a better option.

If Ast holds CU for a single gcd then ED loss cost from sacred soil is peanuts compared to the 250 potency loss Ast just suffered.

It is only free if not channelled and when not channelled both versions are weaker than Sacred soil by a good amount (100 less potency HoT + 12s less 10%dmg mitigation for Diurnal, 500 less potency HoT + 5s more 10% dmg mitigation for nocturnal) to make up for no cost.

That is why I say Sacred Soil is better the cost is appropriate for how powerful it is and the fact it could be up for 50% of a fight(should never ever do this just like a fully channelled CU) also speaks volumes.

[KDSilver]

I'll just stop arguing with you.
You don't understand what you're talking about.

[Volkaj]

If Ast holds CU for a single gcd then ED loss cost from sacred soil is peanuts compared to the 250 potency loss Ast just suffered.

It is only free if not channelled and when not channelled both versions are weaker than Sacred soil by a good amount (100 less potency HoT + 12s less 10%dmg mitigation for Diurnal, 500 less potency HoT + 5s more 10% dmg mitigation for nocturnal) to make up for no cost.

That is why I say Sacred Soil is better the cost is appropriate for how powerful it is and the fact it could be up for 50% of a fight(should never ever do this just like a fully channelled CU) also speaks volumes.

1. AST holds CU for one GCD = 250p lost, SS = 150p lost. I wouldn't say "peanuts", 100p is still less than an ED. But you shouldn't hold CU anyway.

2. If you're only mitigating a single hit (which tends to be the biggest use case), then both behave the same and CU wins. You get 500p HoT from SS + 10% for that one hit, and the same for CU. This assumes Diurnal: on Noct SS wins.

3. One of the biggest advantages (that noone seems to point out?) is that SS has half the cooldown and will give you both effects (HoT + 10%) for the full duration.

Like I said before, CU doesn't competely replace SS, but in most cases CU will be better than SS because of SS's DPS opportunity cost.