It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Krotoan]

As you can clearly see: these differ and for me, what Ifalna wears when she is out and about is as much about how she is perceived by others as by me. No fake empathy will make any kind of censorship compatible with what I want, currently have and do not want to let go.

Then clearly I will stop trying to convince you as you are not willing to discuss, as is your right as a person.

You are free to glamor your char as you wish. I do not have control over how stuff is displayed on your client, not do I want such a thing. I merely want everyone to see the same thing, as it should be.

You want to enforce what you consider "normal" which is the guarantee that where you put your character and what you put ON your character are guaranteed to be at least represented on others screens. This is not a particularly solid rule in every MMORPG, many have instances you can run away to or allow modding. "as it should be" being your own personal value.

Because it is still an RPG. How I dress Ifalna does not only reflect what I find pretty, it also reflects her character, her likes and dislikes, mirrors some of the behavior I attribute to her. Someone arbitrarily seeing her differently or not at all undermines all that.

I do not expect you to understand, most people don't roleplay in this game.

Does it? You can control the physical representation but you cannot control what people think when they see it. No matter how carefully you craft, everyones actual perception is out of your control. Thus why does it matter if someone removes you from their experience if all you represent to them is an annoyance? You shouldn't force people to be a part of your story.

I do roleplay, quite a bit and walking by someone in patchwork insanity is difficult to reconcile in my particular narrative. One of the main reasons I would like this feature realized.

Until it infringes onto the experience of others, as proven by this very thread.
It IS a multiplayer game and no fancy reasoning will eliminate social dynamics and expectations. In that regard, the game is quite similar to our real lives.

The only "experience" it's infringing upon that I cannot seem to find a solution for is that people cannot seem to stand the fact that someone else might not HAVE to see them.
Social expectations based on real world rules are ridiculous when considered within the framework of a video game. We already have systems in place to outright silence people if they annoy us or remove them from our presence if they don't particularly satisfy us in an instance with next to no questions asked.

Well. Since this is a thing. Let’s point out the obvious.

Game code and server load are actual things. This system wouldn’t just be client side it would be server side as well because the game has to know what to render for each player. Making it a server issue.
So lets go with about 1.1 million active subs. That’s 1.1 million decisions in a game, that effects tons of other decisions the game code has to make and transmit data from server to client and client to server.

The server currently sends the positional data, job, race/gender/customization, and glamour data to your client for it to render along with skills being used if in battle. This is all done with simple number values that are then processed and rendered by the clients computer. If you were to say tell the client to ignore the glamour data and show a default skin or gear or character, it wouldn't increase server traffic one bit.

I'm not going to pretend I know this for certain. I am not on the dev team nor am I privy to the actual game code, but this is how most game clients work. Server sends data points, your client processes those into graphical representations and sends back control inputs.

Given that I like my current connection and load times, i pay for the game as it is not how i want it to be. Do I have desires and everything else that I wish would happen? Absolutely. Id like mch not to be so ping reliant. Id like instance based housing, id like roulettes with more than 2 dungeons, etc etc etc.. but just because i pay my sub does not give me the right to demand these things.

Demand being a strong word.. request is more like. You have every right to ASK for things you'd like to see, just not to expect them to be implemented. I don't think I've seen one person supporting this option DEMANDING that it be put in. But hey, it's 140 pages, maybe I missed one.

I made an agreement as did all of you to pay for this game for what it offers not what you can demand from it. If you dont like it. Guess what you have the option to stop playing.

And yes you are free to express opinions and make suggestions but this “suggestion” just from a technical standpoint is ludicrous and pointless. Dont like someone’s glam. Dont pay attention to it. Ffs, between this and the ryne sexualization crap im starting to think yall need a break from the net.

Your technical points don't particularly hold water and the "deal with things the way they are or leave" argument is never helpful.

[Granyala]

You want to enforce what you consider "normal" which is the guarantee that where you put your character and what you put ON your character are guaranteed to be at least represented on others screens. This is not a particularly solid rule in every MMORPG, many have instances you can run away to or allow modding. "as it should be" being your own personal value.

Honey, modding is against the ToS and leads to bans. Lets not go down that rabbit hole, shall we?
Ofc people can mod their clients and I am sure Ifalna is half naked on some of them. That can't be helped.

Does it? You can control the physical representation but you cannot control what people think when they see it. No matter how carefully you craft, everyones actual perception is out of your control.

And that is precisely what makes role playing interesting. To see how people react to Ifalna (attire is just one part of that) and then start interacting in character. The point was never to control peoples perception. Influence it, sure but not control it.

The only "experience" it's infringing upon that I cannot seem to find a solution for is that people cannot seem to stand the fact that someone else might not HAVE to see them.

It also devalues any glamor because you never know whether someone else sees your carefully crafted glamor or [standard ugly armor I] which has been deemed puritan enough to satisfy the conservatives.

PS: the point of a discussion is not to convince the other party. It is the exchange of viewpoints. Let both parties draw their own conclusions from that.

[Krotoan]

Honey, modding is against the ToS and leads to bans. Lets not go down that rabbit hole, shall we?
Ofc people can mod their clients and I am sure Ifalna is half naked on some of them. That can't be helped.

Read the part where I said "every MMORPG". It is currently against TOS in FFXIV, I am aware. And the whole "honey" thing is a little off-putting, could you not?

And that is precisely what makes role playing interesting. To see how people react to Ifalna (attire is just one part of that) and then start interacting in character. The point was never to control peoples perception. Influence it, sure but not control it.

You still wish to guarantee someone sees you. To a point that is controlling especially if the only reason you wish it is that you need to know that at some level they're forced to interact with you. There is no particular physical law or rule that needs to be enforced here.

It also devalues any glamor because you never know whether someone else sees your carefully crafted glamor or [standard ugly armor I] which has been deemed puritan enough to satisfy the conservatives.

PS: the point of a discussion is not to convince the other party. It is the exchange of viewpoints. Let both parties draw their own conclusions from that.

Again, this is your NEED to know everyone can see it. It removes nothing.
I'm well aware of your point of view I think, I'm reasonably good at seeing things from a few angles, the sticking point now is that neither of us are going to be able to change those points of view since I think your particular hangup is silly and narrow-minded and you likely think mine is selfish and possibly sociopathic or bigoted.

You are, in essence, punishing other players by denying them to be presented how they wish to be on your screen. Why is it only acceptable when it comes from you?

In what perceptible way would I be affecting their experience? How can you punish someone who never feels the effects or repercussions?

No. You're denying everyone you encounter. Please read it again.

I am limiting their effect upon my own experience . In no way whatsoever would they know or need to know.

It's like all you've done in this entire thread is argue for the sake over things you already know the answer to, but willingly feign ignorance over. This is no exception.

Disabling the glamours of all other players denies their in-game right to visually express themselves. It doesn't matter if it's only you that sees this change; you've dehumanized them and shoved them under the rug. Even in an online context it's a morally abhorrent position to take.

Express the everliving heck out of yourself, don't force me to participate.
Is muting dehumanizing? Is Kicking someone from your party? Is moving to another server dehumanizing? In an online context where I am playing a game for my own enjoyment and only need to interact with others in bare minimum capacity of doing my role functions in instances I am dehumanizing people? The "morality" of that situation needs to consider the context quite a bit. To a point everyone I interact with is granted the fact that behind that keyboard is a human being deserving of baseline civility. However we are all playing a game together and the detachment from that game and the knowledge that every character is merely that is important knowledge to consider. If I choose to interact with someone I know the humanity needs to be preserved with compassion and consideration for human feelings. I don't think this extends to me having to deal with someone choosing what I consider undesirable combinations of graphics. There are currently options to deal with this but this particular option would be less bother in many ways.

Social interaction is ever evolving in real life, as well, but that still doesn't allow you to dictate the expression of another human being so long as it doesn't harm another person.

Again, my choice to not experience your "expression" is not dictating what you can express.

Hardly, considering unlike you and your compatriots, I'm more than capable of tolerating diversity. I mean I'm tolerating you, even though I think your worldview is incredibly toxic and regressive.

Your idea of a 'solution' is the digital equivalent of Don't Ask Don't Tell, the misguided notion that a lack of visibility somehow makes it all go away. Spoiler: it doesn't.

I don't have "compatriots" in this thread, there's a few people who are for this feature I completely disagree with their reasoning in fact. Being "out of lore" is a dumb argument for example. You know little to nothing about my actual worldview, again, ALL of my arguments are in the context of a video game.
Don't ask don't tell would be more akin to how this game deals with DPS meters. You are asking that my " differing tastes in aesthetics " be swallowed and unspoken. That is what I mean. From this side of the argument the opposition is asking that we simply deal with what others have chosen when a solution to give us a choice as well is possible.

Good lord... an online game exists in the real world. It's populated by living, breathing beings from a plethora of backgrounds, paying the exact same subscription fee as you on a publicly accessible server. They are human, and so long as they are not breaking the ToS, no one gets to dictate when and how they express themselves.

Quit perpetuating these same fallacies ad nauseam. It's not a good look. None of what you're saying is.

Nobody has a "right" to express themselves on my personal computer and on my dime. Right now they have the capacity due to how the game works but it's not as if anyone's "freedom to express" is limited once I stop playing and that avenue is removed.

You think you're standing up against some sort of dehumanizing quashing of personal expression but all I'm asking for is customization of experience for myself. The fallacy I see being spread is that by choosing not to see something personally I'm limiting someones expression. Express all you like, I don't want to have to be a part of it.

[Awha]

Honey, modding is against the ToS and leads to bans. Lets not go down that rabbit hole, shall we?
Ofc people can mod their clients and I am sure Ifalna is half naked on some of them. That can't be helped.

To be fair you can only get banned if the person does something to bring attention to themselves, otherwise SE really does not care. Which is why personally this whole thing confuses me outside of extremely rare situtions people would not have any idea someone has the feature on or off, so wouldn't it be like modding just more available.

[Granyala]

To be fair you can only get banned if the person does something to bring attention to themselves, otherwise SE really does not care. Which is why personally this whole thing confuses me outside of extremely rare situtions people would not have any idea someone has the feature on or off, so wouldn't it be like modding just more available.

Right now, only a handful of people mod. There is a certain deterrent and you need to know where to find it and how to mod the files.
With such an option the amount of people using it would be orders of magnitude higher.

I still find the request nonsensical. I played MMOs before transmog/glamor was a thing and it was lame. Most of the time you ran around like a clown because stats > all.
Should SE have had some restrictions on the "leisure" and "humorous" gear from the start? Yes, I think so.

But to make such a fuss about it 6 years AFTER the fact is ... illogical.

[Awha]

Right now, only a handful of people mod. There is a certain deterrent and you need to know where to find it and how to mod the files.
With such an option the amount of people using it would be orders of magnitude higher.

I still find the request nonsensical. I played MMOs before transmog/glamor was a thing and it was lame. Most of the time you ran around like a clown because stats > all.
Should SE have had some restrictions on the "leisure" and "humorous" gear from the start? Yes, I think so.

But to make such a fuss about it 6 years AFTER the fact is ... illogical.

It is a nonsensical and implausible request that will never happen, and I honestly do not like using the word never, but in this case I do think it is safe to say. Though that is reason why I perosnally find the discussion interesting. Sadly, the modding community in this game is on the smaller side, and yes if such a feature was relased more people would use it. For me personally I do not see how the amount of people using a feature alters this situation.

I have no data but I just find it hard to think that if such a feature was implemented people would alter their behavior from how they did before regarding glamour and interactions. Do you think the community at large would shift to the assumption that vast majoirty use the feature? Cause personally that is really the only way I could see such a feature having a direct impact on people.

For the record my view is bias since I do not really care about glamour and I dress my character in things others would call ridiculous.

It's just the way people "argue" these days: "I don't like this so I make the claim that this topic is pointless and not worth the time to discuss".

I understand, that makes sense. Though for others it might be as pointless, for me personally the topic is interesting, granted at this point in many other forums the moderators properly would tell those currently engaged to take it to private messages. Sadly we do not have that feature here.

[Krotoan]

I understand, that makes sense. Though for others it might be as pointless, for me personally the topic is interesting, granted at this point in many other forums the moderators properly would tell those currently engaged to take it to private messages. Sadly we do not have that feature here.

O.o? But why? If anyone doesn't enjoy this particular conversation they can not view the thread or not click on it.
Or hey.. if one poster in particular bothers anyone you can remove their posts from view with the "ignore" function.... or would that be removing their freedom of expression?


.. OK that was a little uncivil.

[Gula]

To be fair you can only get banned if the person does something to bring attention to themselves, otherwise SE really does not care. Which is why personally this whole thing confuses me outside of extremely rare situtions people would not have any idea someone has the feature on or off, so wouldn't it be like modding just more available.

Here ya go, putting words into SE's mouth. Did you miss the Live Letter in which Yoshi P addressed mods? And how they changed how markers worked because of mods??

[Awha]

Here ya go, putting words into SE's mouth. Did you miss the Live Letter in which Yoshi P addressed mods? And how they changed how markers worked because of mods??

Been away, is that how they tread to break that plugin, that honestly does not change anything since the person that uses the plugin would still be able to use it, just would not be able to mark it for the rest of the group.

I still stand by SE does not care, because they straight up just threw every legitment use of using markers while in combat under the bus due to a knee jerk reaction. Do not want to derail the the thread and turn it into mods, plugin debate though.

As it stands they can plea with the community all the want to not use certain things, but without constant action and enforcment of their ToS, I do feel it safe to assume on a whole they do not care about the grey area all that much unless attention is brought to it, and SE feels it negatively impacts the game. In the case of this hypothcial feature I do not see how it would negatively impact the game, because I do not think the community at large would shift to the assumption that most people use said feature so what my character looks like does not matter anymore.