Delete Clemency and Vercure

[SamRF]

Lets start with the answer to your question: I wouldnt do things much different than you do - tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!"). If they still do that, I shrug and be happy that I get to dps more. Considering that it can be an overall dps-gain to have the healer keep dpsing, I dont see a problem here. Its not always an overall dps loss to have a paladin cast Clemency - fair enough, thats different for Vercure, but still.

For my second point I'd like to point out again that a good PLD/RDM will only use those tools if needed (because of healers who are for some reason unable to keep up with the incoming damage, for example because they're dead on the floor). That means that playing with a good healer wont require any additional healing.
If you encounter a healing PLD/RDM in situations where no extra heals were needed, you simply encountered someone who isnt playing their class well. Happens. All the time. Gotta shrug it off, specially since its not making your job harder (unlike the dragoon who manages to stand in all AoEs while still missing all of their positionals). I get that its less satisfying to fully optimise yourself, but thats something you usually can only achieve in a pre-made group in the first place.
And as I mentioned: You'll encounter bad players of every job all the time, including bad healers - and then extra heals are a godsent, allowing parties to still get through content even though their healer managed to somehow die within the first 10 seconds of a fight. Or to support the second healer in 8-man content if their co-healer is useless. Or not having to start a 10 minute fight all over again because both healers went down with the boss at 10%.

Specially Clemency is a way to deal with bad healers or to support struggling ones.
Your way to deal with bad PLD/RDMs is to get over it, notice that they're not doing any actual harm to anyone but their own personal dps - which probably isnt even great to begin with if they're healing without cause - and shrug it off.
Your way to dealing with healers being boring to play is to request that healers get more engaging spells again.

By far best reply I've gotten so far, thank you for your insight it sure did change my view on the matter to some extend.

It's just that those 2 abilities seem like the only ones that interfere with another job's optimization while also sacrificing dps. But I'd rather agree that we shouldn't change a job's toolkit because some players use them wrongly. I also really enjoy using those abilities in solo content.

[DumdogsWorld]

I have a dumb question here, but if 99% of the complaints are that it's on the global cooldown and therefore interrupting rotations, why couldn't they just make the abilities on their own cooldowns?

[SamRF]

I have a dumb question here, but if 99% of the complaints are that it's on the global cooldown and therefore interrupting rotations, why couldn't they just make the abilities on their own cooldowns?

Yes I would be in favor of that. They could change both of those abilities into some kind of healing oGCD's so the jobs can keep their identity.

[SamRF]

As I said in the other thread: communicate. Not everyone values clear speed above everything else, so don't just go and assume that. Trying to force other to play the way you want with your actions is rude and will get a negative response.

I'm going to respond and ask you a question with another reply I made a couple of pages back (not that I expect you to have read it of course)

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

[tdb]

Efficiency. (don't take this out of context please, consider the full post I'm responding to)

They shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the first place, if they do, I would argue that they have bad/unfair judgement (which is okay) and need to work on that. I hear many say that they encounter healers that do let them die. In that case, unless it's obvious that healer won't be able to heal you (hard cast rez, dead, ..) you should trust your healer. If it did lead to party being wiped, then by all means do use Vercure/Cemency next time for insurance.

Again, not everyone plays for maximum efficiency. While the only way to learn your true limits is to cross them, some people just don't like to fail. For them it's better to pre-emptively use the heal even if it makes the run one second longer than to cause a wipe and waste several minutes doing the boss from the beginning.

There might be an exception for Paladins in some (specific lower level) dungeons when either healer or tank isn't up to par with their gear and they overpull. Then it could perhaps be a good idea to throw a few clemencies when you don't have any defense buffs going on while taking enormous amount of damage. But it should never be as a respond to how much health you have because you can't predict that with the cast time. A response to how much damage you are taking can be debatable, a response to how much health you have is imo always bad practice in group content for PLD (except for those exceptional cases you know healer is unable to heal).

If you don't have the fight memorized it's difficult to know how much damage you're going to take, so how much HP you have is all you have to go by. And if you don't know what the boss is going to do next, you might not want to sit at 30% HP and trust the healer to know when to heal. Some players don't have the same capacity for learning as you and I, and tankbusters in particular don't offer any universally recognizable clue of what the attack is about to do.

[SamRF]

Any person you encounter through DF is a stranger, so why should I just trust them straight away? Obviously one should go in with the expectation that everyone in there is capable of doing their job - but trust? Nope, thats something you gotta earn. And you might be burdend by me encountering several healers before you who worked very hard not to earn any amount of trust.

But PLD and RDM are just 1 job within their role, and the only ones with (potent) targeted healing on GCD. You're supposed to be trusting your healer because you have no choice in many (/most?) party set ups (when there are no RDM or PLD).

[Maero]

Only times Red Mages use Vercure, myself anyhow is because of Regen healers. It is like Avidria stated really.
If at all you would think healers would appreciate help?

[testname]

Edit: for those who don't know, Clemency and Vercure are PLD's and RDM's GCD (fairly strong) single target healing abilities.

I'm exaggerating with the title and am not convinced those abilities should be deleted yet, but hear me out:

Very insulting as healer if you see RDM or PLD use Clemency/Vercure when you have everything under control. You're maximizing your dps as healer and thus put in some effort to efficiently heal to extend party will survive only to see the dps gain get completely wasted by that Vercure/Clemency.

At first I kind of liked those abilities when leveling both PLD and RDM, but now have come to hate them when leveling healers to the point I'm wondering if those abilities should even exist. Sure they're really nice abilities if you're doing solo content, but they may suggest the wrong idea to some players by making them believe they should freely use them in group content.

The thing is that healers currently usually rely on their oGCD's for healing while they keep GCD's for dps. In many cases they will let HP decrease so they can make optimal use of their oGCD's. Some RDM and PLD may start thinking they or someone else are going to die with their decreasing health while healer has everything under control and is 1 tap away of getting their HP back up.

There are some exceptional cases, like when healer is dead, or massive overpulling in some specific lower level dungoens, but vast majority of cases I see those 2 abilities used is a complete waste.

The dps loss doesn't bother me that much, it's just not nice for a healer when they're already stuck with their monotone dps rotation and on top of that they deny you of enjoying your job with well timed oGCD's.

In other topic You want to delete glamours , and now this , good job champ- clap clap -

[Vidu]

But PLD and RDM are just 1 job within their role, and the only ones with (potent) targeted healing on GCD. You're supposed to be trusting your healer because you have no choice in many (/most?) party set ups (when there are no RDM or PLD).

I main a paladin - and while there are many more reasons (habit, liking the class etc.) as to why: This is actually one of them. That I'm pretty much always in a party set up with emergency healing. I consider myself a good (enough) paladin and refrain from using Clemency as long as the healer is fully there (not dead, afk or bot-like) or to trigger Divine Veil when I'm offtank in 8-man content.
Leveling (or playing) my other tanks is always a bit frustrating because sooner or later I end up in a situation where I cant help thinking that I could have saved that with my paladin.

So I actually do have the luxury not to blindly and completly trust my healers - by paying the small price of playing on of the jobs who dont have to.

[tdb]

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

The straight answer is that I wouldn't. I simply don't care enough, and the slowdown caused by a PLD sacrificing an attack for Clemency dwarfs next to a DPS who only uses single-target attacks on mass pulls, or someone who dies constantly and forces me to hardcast raises. Particularly fast runs are something to take mental note of, but I'm not so much in a hurry that I would try to shave seconds off a run by micromanaging the other players.

I have a perfect example of this from a week or two ago when I spammed Aurum Vale runs to farm the moogle tomestones. Most tanks didn't pull it wall to wall but only took one or two groups at a time. The fastest run was something like 11 minutes. Then there was one tank who did pull everything they could. I actually had to pay attention to healing and it was honestly more exciting than the usual AV run (no wipes and the tank didn't die; I don't remember if either of the DPS did). But guess what? It took about two minutes longer than the fastest run. The DPS playing properly is so much more important than optimizing the last 1% out of the tank that I just don't bother.

But I digress. To entertain the thought, your wording may come off as a reprimand of them doing something wrong. So perhaps instead encourage them to trust you by saying something along the lines of "I got the heals, you can focus on damage". Try to offer a positive reason for them to not use the ability rather than just telling them to stop using it. It's easier to convince someone to play a certain way if you give them all the pieces they need to arrive at the conclusion of that being the best way.