Delete Clemency and Vercure

[SamRF]

The reason why we think you're trolling at this point is because you are, once again, trying to force your own efficiency onto other players. You automatically seem to think that if non-healers use their heals, they're bad at their DPS/Tanking job. It honestly seems like you're trying to find your own echo chamber by trying to find those who agree with your mentality. Which is ironic that you're making this thread in the first place considering that in the other thread you made, you were trying to justify yourself (a healer) pulling for the tank. (Which, pulling, is not your job.) So you can pre-pull as a healer ahead of the tank, but you don't want anyone else to be doing healing? Wat.

You should just play with a pre-made party instead of pushing your agenda to random pugs. You can tell them that you are going to pre-pull ahead of the tank and tell the tank and other DPS that they aren't allowed to use any of their healing abilities. Problem solved.

Regarding my previous thread:

Wait a second. Doesn't this thread prove that "it's not your job" argument is invalid? I could say that you shouldn't be using Clemency or Vercure because it "isn't your job" to heal, just like it isn't my job as healer to pull. Did you just get yourself into a corner argument wise or am I missing something?

You might start saying that it is PLD and RDM's job to heal because it's part of their toolkit, well what would stop me to prepull in scenario I had described in that thread? Isn't it just as rude to not trust your healer to heal you well as prepulling as healer because you don't trust the Tank's judgement? Is my reasoning flawed or are you guys actually hypocrites? (not meant offensive, genuinely wondering)

[SamRF]

With the first thread I thought maybe he was just clueless. Combined with this thread I'm convinced he's an elaborate troll or just a narcissist who thinks everyone should stay in their lane. Except for himself of course--he can do whatever he wants in the name of "efficiency".

I don't understand why you need to get this personal and judge me as a person based on my posts. I made this and my previous threads to discuss something, not to take a stance or something. I've got my view on the topic changed in both this thread and my previous one and have admitted so in replies (check a couple pages back) so I'm not disregarding anyone's opinion that differs from mine. Just don't reply if you're that offended by the post. Or do reply with an argument and present it in a respectful manner. Do what you want in the end not like I care too much.

[Centershock]

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

I honestly think he's trolling at this point and he knows exactly what he's doing. Like, how did he expect this thread to go when he's practically asking to remove a skill from both RDM and PLD that basically makes their class what they are? (i.e. RDM has always been about white and black magic, while PLD has always been about being a knight and healing) Not only that, they're great skills when you need them in a pinch.

It's one thing if healers are having a hard time healing for whatever reason and the RDM and the PLD are helping with healing. It's another when they're using their healing abilities repeatedly out of nowhere when it's clear no one needs healing.

[SamRF]

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Wait a second. Doesn't this thread prove that "it's not your job" argument is invalid? I could say that you shouldn't be using Clemency or Vercure because it "isn't your job" to heal, just like it isn't my job as healer to pull. Did you just get yourself into a corner argument wise or am I missing something?

You might start saying that it is PLD and RDM's job to heal because it's part of their toolkit, well what would stop me to prepull in scenario I had described in that thread? Isn't it just as rude to not trust your healer to heal you well as prepulling as healer because you don't trust the Tank's judgement? Is my reasoning flawed or are you guys actually hypocrites? (not meant offensive, genuinely wondering)

[tdb]

Wait a second. Doesn't this thread prove that "it's not your job" argument is invalid? I could say that you shouldn't be using Clemency or Vercure because it "isn't your job" to heal, just like it isn't my job as healer to pull. Did you just get yourself into a corner argument wise or am I missing something?

While the situations may look similar, the reasons for them are the opposite for each other. A PLD or RDM is using heals because they feel they or the party is in danger and they don't trust your heals. And given the amount of bad healers I've both met and read about I really can't fault them. Similarly a tank may be doing small pulls because they don't trust your heals and feel the danger from larger ones is too great. Meanwhile you pull more because you feel the danger is not enough. It's your boredom versus their feeling of comfort and safety - by what privilege do you place your feelings over theirs?

[SamRF]

While the situations may look similar, the reasons for them are the opposite for each other. A PLD or RDM is using heals because they feel they or the party is in danger and they don't trust your heals. And given the amount of bad healers I've both met and read about I really can't fault them. Similarly a tank may be doing small pulls because they don't trust your heals and feel the danger from larger ones is too great. Meanwhile you pull more because you feel the danger is not enough. It's your boredom versus their feeling of comfort and safety

by what privilege do you place your feelings over theirs?

Efficiency. (don't take this out of context please, consider the full post I'm responding to)

They shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the first place, if they do, I would argue that they have bad/unfair judgement (which is okay) and need to work on that. I hear many say that they encounter healers that do let them die. In that case, unless it's obvious that healer won't be able to heal you (hard cast rez, dead, ..) you should trust your healer. If it did lead to party being wiped, then by all means do use Vercure/Cemency next time for insurance.

There might be an exception for Paladins in some (specific lower level) dungeons when either healer or tank isn't up to par with their gear and they overpull. Then it could perhaps be a good idea to throw a few clemencies when you don't have any defense buffs going on while taking enormous amount of damage. But it should never be as a respond to how much health you have because you can't predict that with the cast time. A response to how much damage you are taking can be debatable, a response to how much health you have is imo always bad practice in group content for PLD (except for those exceptional cases you know healer is unable to heal).

[Vidu]

Efficiency. (don't take this out of context please, consider the full post I'm responding to)

They shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the first place, if they do, I would argue that they have bad/unfair judgement (which is okay) and need to work on that. I hear many say that they encounter healers that do let them die. In that case, unless it's obvious that healer won't be able to heal you (hard cast rez, dead, ..) you should trust your healer. If it did lead to party being wiped, then by all means do use Vercure/Cemency next time for insurance.

There might be an exception for Paladins in some (specific lower level) dungeons when either healer or tank isn't up to par with their gear and they overpull. Then it could perhaps be a good idea to throw a few clemencies when you don't have any defense buffs going on while taking enormous amount of damage. But it should never be as a respond to how much health you have because you can't predict that with the cast time. A response to how much damage you are taking can be debatable, a response to how much health you have is imo always bad practice in group content for PLD (except for those exceptional cases you know healer is unable to heal).

I wouldnt say they have bad/unfair judgment - I dare say that they've simply encountered to many healers who are struggling and are now careful.

Before this patch I took a bit of a hiatus from DF, but now with new tomes and a new NM raid I'm dipping my toes back in - granted, all of this is now first week experience, but so far I've seen the following healers:
- dead for 50% of E5-8
- unable to deal with mechanics and healing tanks at the same time (which resulted in a dead tank in E7NM - who died from autoattacks and took no additional damage they shouldnt have taken. With an ilvl of 472 and CDs up. The mechanic was "run to one side" - which can be paired with an instant heal)
- letting the tank die to a mitigated tankbuster from a dungeonboss

Any person you encounter through DF is a stranger, so why should I just trust them straight away? Obviously one should go in with the expectation that everyone in there is capable of doing their job - but trust? Nope, thats something you gotta earn. And you might be burdend by me encountering several healers before you who worked very hard not to earn any amount of trust.

[tdb]

Efficiency. (don't take this out of context please, consider the full post I'm responding to)

They shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the first place, if they do, I would argue that they have bad/unfair judgement (which is okay) and need to work on that. I hear many say that they encounter healers that do let them die. In that case, unless it's obvious that healer won't be able to heal you (hard cast rez, dead, ..) you should trust your healer. If it did lead to party being wiped, then by all means do use Vercure/Cemency next time for insurance.

Again, not everyone plays for maximum efficiency. While the only way to learn your true limits is to cross them, some people just don't like to fail. For them it's better to pre-emptively use the heal even if it makes the run one second longer than to cause a wipe and waste several minutes doing the boss from the beginning.

There might be an exception for Paladins in some (specific lower level) dungeons when either healer or tank isn't up to par with their gear and they overpull. Then it could perhaps be a good idea to throw a few clemencies when you don't have any defense buffs going on while taking enormous amount of damage. But it should never be as a respond to how much health you have because you can't predict that with the cast time. A response to how much damage you are taking can be debatable, a response to how much health you have is imo always bad practice in group content for PLD (except for those exceptional cases you know healer is unable to heal).

If you don't have the fight memorized it's difficult to know how much damage you're going to take, so how much HP you have is all you have to go by. And if you don't know what the boss is going to do next, you might not want to sit at 30% HP and trust the healer to know when to heal. Some players don't have the same capacity for learning as you and I, and tankbusters in particular don't offer any universally recognizable clue of what the attack is about to do.

[Shaddranat]

I main PLD, my best friend mains RDM. We both get frequent use of Clemency and Vercure, both on ourselves and on others. I have personally benefited from my friend's ability to Vercure when an inexperienced/unattentive healer has gotten themselves killed - yes, I realize that as a RDM he could also have raised the dead healer, but Vercure costs less to cast.

I'm just gonna come right out and say it - like it or don't. If you are a healer and you are finding yourself insulted by someone else playing their class (because yes, a PLD using Clemency, and a RDM using Vercure IS playing their class) then you are very likely suffering from a fairly considerable emotional complex. Here's a secret, folks. Might want to keep this one to yourselves, but I feel I can trust y'all with it...

THIS IS JUST A GAME. GET OVER YOURSELF.

[YatoShishi]

ive only seen rdm using vercure when nothing is under controll. also if you feel insulted by someone using vercure and clemency i think your the problem.