5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Nedkel]

I am 100% they are going to nerf homlgang in pvp and make it almost completely useless. Well thats me ending playing tanks in pvp i guess.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Only things i can imagine WAR'd get in 5.2 would be simple stuff. Eye's duration increased to 40s. Maybe an increase to Glint's mitigation to 15%?
Stuff like decoupling Nascent from RI and the clunkiness of Infuriate's interaction while under the effect of IR isn't something I trust SE to not botch.

The only changes I would personally like to see is NF to have its target requirement removed (Dragoon got it with Dragon Sight, so I see no reason we can't get the same) as well as some minor potency buffs. Otherwise leave the job alone.

[millktea]

The only changes I would personally like to...

No, warrior is worse than just needing a few QoL changes, I don't care how much you desire "guaranteed hits". There's no reason that warrior went untouched.

It needs more than potency buffs, which it didn't get. It shouldn't be so drastically behind in every way, it shouldn't have a conditional invuln. The fact that 'inner release' tries to promise there is no stun, sleep, etc and yet this never truly helps you other than someone's negate knockback (and sometimes it didn't and you die), what is the point? Why even bother adding those buffs when they hardly ever occur?

Holmgang shouldn't NEED me to untarget an enemy to be usable far away. It shouldn't FALL OFF just because the enemy dies, making it anywhere between 1 to 8s.

Why are we sometimes spamming storms eye twice because they couldn't make this long enough to adjust to changes? Every other job got this adjustment. Gunbreaker times were created *knowing* this issue.

Why is Inner Chaos sharing a button with fell cleave, which makes it clip your IR? Why does IRs animation clip it? Play 70 war and this doesn't exist with just infuriate into FC. Decimate should be 2 targets, not 3. I want to FC less. Not more. A jobs staple rotation should not be locked behind BiS nor extra melds. And console players nor westerners should not be getting less stability in ping simply by birth or medium. We pay the same price.

We won't get these changes with you trying to toss aside or lie about warriors problems.

You do NOTHING for 80s. 80s of downtime. That is ridiculous. The only true benefit that you have over other wars, is that as long as you do not mess up IR, you're fine. That's cheap (I admit I like this too, but its still cheap). While warrior does have skill gap, mostly due to gauge management, it isn't as big as it should be. Yoshi pitched that all the tanks would do the same damage and that they would work at low levels.

Warrior does not do what gunbreaker nor paladin does. War does not have an ot skill. It is a bad or in general. Paladin is still better at ot and not mt. It doesn't have free cd like the other tanks.

Stop defending it.

It didn't get new skills. No new animations. Its clunky. Less buttons. No. Do NOT leave war like it is. Its empty and lackluster. We deserve better. The fact that all these problems exist and we got no QoL changes is insulting. SiO wasnt what we needed

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

No, WAR doesn't need more than just a few QoL changes.

>Conditional invuln.

It is anything but. It takes a few milliseconds at most to click on the environment prior to hitting Holmgang. If you cannot do something as baseline simple as that, then I genuinely wonder if you are fit to play this game. Let's also not forget that Holmgang is by and far the strongest invuln cooldown due to its meager four minute CD.

>IC clipping IR

I'm sorry, but what are you even talking about? If you're clipping IC into IR then that is 100% a problem with you, because it means you are not spending your Nascent Chaos buff prior to entering Inner Release and, if you are doing that regularly, that is once again a you problem.

>WAR doesn't have an OT skill

Nascent Flash says hello. If you aren't using this ability as Warrior then you are severely playing the job wrong, as Nascent Flash is easily the single strongest skill in the job's arsenal outside of Holmgang.

>WAR is empty

Hate to break it to you, but WAR only has around 2 APM less on average than GNB, which is often considered the busiest tank. On an entirely different point, Warrior has the single strongest party mitigation tool with Shake it Off on a single raidwide, with Dark Missionary and Heart of Light only becoming superior in situations where they are capable of mitigating two hits over the duration of a single cast.

TL;DR - Sounds like a lot of *you* problems.

[ArianeEwah]

No, WAR doesn't need more than just a few QoL changes.
[...]
TL;DR - Sounds like a lot of *you* problems.

millktea was right about you. You disagree with literally EVERYONE here in this thread, you are totally confinced that the current state of all tanks is fine EXCEPT that WAR should be 2nd in tank dps (wtf).

There are once again many misinformation in your posts.

Invul: There is no information in the tooltip that holmgang ends as your target gets defeated. It states 8s duration and AS A BONUS it binds the target. If it was INTENDED to end its duration with your target, then the tooltip is simply wrong. Stop defending lazy programming!
Also, we should not be driven to generate a macro, so it only targets ourselves. Macros are not a reliable solution. Neither should we be forced to unselect our target for it to properly work. It is once again not stated in the tooltip, so it's either not clear or not intended. Simple.

Clipping IC: This was stated by mediatour testers as an issue. Not a big issue, once you've figured it out, but it is an issue nonetheless.
It's a 'noob trap' that could simply resolved by giving IC a separate button. WAR has the least button of maybe all jobs - 1 or 2 more buttons will not hurt! Additionally, this 'issue' doesn't even EXIST below level 80 (or 72 for CC).
So, even for the fact it has been stated as an issue since mediatour is proof that it's not a "*you* problem".

WAR OT skill (NF): While millkteas statement about not having an OT skill is wrong, in reality it actually seems about right. In practice NF is rather used as an MT skill instead of RI. It feels more like RI has been replaced by NF rather than gaining an OT skill, because NF' gain outweights RI mitigation in the majority of cases. Unless you plan to increase SiO shield by 2%, RI has rather short usage.

Actions per minute: Where did you get the information that GNB only has 2 more APM than WAR? The whole statement is wrong.
Firstly, APM =/= CPM. APM are actual clicks/Actions Per Minute with mouse/keyboard/controller which included mocements, too. CPM are casts per minute which include only casts/skills and abilities used.
Secondly, in most cases WAR has ~25% less CPM than GNB, rougly 34-36 vs 40-44. GNB isn't the busiest tank for no reason.

tl;dr: stop defending lazy design/programming, and stop projecting your own desire on the majority of playerbase.

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

I disagree with most people in this thread because the overwhelming majority of you are objectively wrong and, frankly, don't understand the job well enough to have any place discussing it if all you're going to do is claim incorrect statements as fact. Firstly, macros are more than fine for non-attack skills. Shirk macro for the #2 party member is literally standard and, so long as the macro is written properly, will never fail to go off on time. If you're so concerned with Holmgang not fading due to a target dying or going untargetable then simply write a macro for it and have the action command repeated sufficient times. This is literally a non-issue. Second of all, IC is also a non-issue. If you consider it an issue to have to hit IC before entering IR then, well, I think you have bigger problems than something as simple as that. Nascent being a "MT skill" primarily is just, entirely wrong. It may be overall more powerful for the Warrior than their targeted party member, but 10% mitigation as well as some variable amount of healing (depending on if you're able to toss a Fell Cleave and/or Inner Chaos into Nascent or not) is overall (most of the time) more powerful than Heart of Stone as far as strength when being used as an OT skill. APM, CPM, arguing which of the terms to use is nothing more than semantics because they're both used to mean the same shit, and the fact of the matter is that WAR is only around 2 APM/CPM below GNB and these are taken from kill logs which means that, before you try to come up with some ludicrous counterpoint, that the numbers are accurate.

Frankly if you want me to stop "disagreeing with everyone" then everyone in this thread should stop trying to shove objectively incorrect statements as if they're factual. I'd also recommend they learn the difference between a personal distaste and something that is a legitimate issue, as the two are entirely different things. You may not like Fell Cleave and Inner Chaos sharing a key but that does not mean it is an issue, because it isn't. In fact, avoiding clipping Inner Chaos into Inner Release actually adds even a small amount of active thinking required to the job's rotation that some of you seem to think is so boring, since you are actively losing DPS if you clip IC into IR or do not spend an IC charge before going into IR and thus overcap on the cooldown reduction on Infuriate.

On a final point, your last comment is extremely amusing to me, as the only ones projecting their own desires onto the playerbase are a select few people in this thread. I am simply stating that Warrior is, as it stands, mostly fine. Some of you, on the other hand, have all these various ways that you want the job to be changed so that it fits the precise desires of you and only you, and everyone else be damned. Sorry to break it to you, but it don't work that way friendo.

[Phileas]

Warrior was streamlined...into boredom. Its just not very exciting anymore. I miss the switch between defiance and deliverance. While 100% deliverance was optimal, it was nice have the defiance skills as a choice for survival.

When i play warrior now it just feels like im doing nothing but waiting for inner release to come off cooldown. If the boss disappears while under IR it just feels so bad ~_~

[whiskeybravo]

Some people need to step off the hyperbole train at the next available stop.

Holmgang is fine. If you're popping it 1-8 seconds before something dies it's pretty much a wasted CD at that point anyways. The absolute only time I've ever encountered this issue was Shinryu Ex trying to kill the heart and holmgang the TB at the same time. Literally one occasion in the entire game that most of us have actually experienced. One occasion that could absolutely be fixed by (at that time) switching back to the boss. AKA, having some awareness about the encounter. "But it's not in the tooltip!" A lot of things aren't in tooltips, that's why you play the game and hopefully learn a thing or 2 along the way. Back in the day this used to just be called a "learning curve".

NF is just a divisive ability because self-healing has been WARs shtick since inception. They took away the majority of our baked in self-healing (after taking away our on demand self healing like Bloodbath) and replaced it with an OT support ability. The problem is that NF is actually too powerful. It's such a good self-healing ability, on a job that's always been known for it's self-healing, but it's relegated as a "support" ability that can only be used in groups - instead of being a true self-healing ability. It's just a divisive design. Aside from that, the fact that it's more effective than RI under certain conditions alludes to some actual thinking that's involved in while trying to optimize your WAR play. But same as the FC/IC interplay Lucy mentions, it's instead written off as one of many "issues" with an otherwise "boring" job to play.

Saying that NF was poorly designed as a support ability is a valid criticism, it's really trying to do too much. But there's more ways to "fix it" than simply removing the target requirement. This suggestion is just the easiest solution that leads to the most desired outcome, with any notion of balance being damned. I mean, sure I'd like to heal myself 50k every 25 sec, but that basically means it's all NF is going to be used for. RIP having a support ability. If we're being honest then there has to be some give and take, and if you're not interested in that - then at least be honest about not being honest.

[ArianeEwah]

nonsense

Really? NF is not used as MT? I knew you neglect "most common" knowledge, but this is stretching it.
Not only are most warriors using it as healing/mitigation skill in most cases, it is proven to be more efficient than RI in multiple guides. I know you dislike the balance discord, and it seems you don't want to acknowledge anything regarding it. Your loss, but stop spreading false information!

Stop mixing APM and CPM, they are completely different terms! APM is a general term for all games, whereas CPM is more or less exclusive to MMOs. I don't know where you take your "Kill logs" from, but I haven't found any logs from GNB or WAR in e.g. E2s, where any GNB was below 41, or any WAR that was above 37 CPM. If you GNB with 2 more APM/CPM whatever than your WAR, guess then you play GNB wrong.

But this job should not rely on CPM to be competetive, but don't expect anyone to agree with you that you want the highest self-healing tank with the least button-float to be 2nd top DPS tank.

Your whole understanding of the current tank state is so lacking. The majority wishes for a redesign. Whether the proposed suggestions in this thread are good, bad, right or wrong, doesn't matter. You simply sign them as 'wrong', whereas you are already wrong for not seeing an issue in the first place. Like I said before, there are even players/streamers that play on a complete different level than us, yet they still acknowledge that certain design flaws cause problems for a even a slim majority.

Yes, I wish for a redesign, and so do many, many others. Otherwise there would be more people playing WAR, or threads like this wouldn't exist, or would have less agreement with them. Right now, WAR is the least played tank in this expansion. WAR is fine balance-wise, but not design-wise, the number proof that much. It's neither exiting, nor is it difficult. It's simply boredom. A MMO is played by many people and as such should be designed for many people, but WAR is not appealing.

But what should I expect from someone who hasn't played any tank pre-ShB, or thinks that BW is fine - also another topic you simply disagree with based on misinformation. You cannot expect any tank player from pre-ShB era to just accept the "downgrade" they got hit with in this expac. I cannot (and will not) explain them to you, you would rightout ignore them, just like you did with all the other issues.

[whiskeybravo]

Really? NF is not used as MT? I knew you neglect "most common" knowledge, but this is stretching it.
Not only are most warriors using it as healing/mitigation skill in most cases, it is proven to be more efficient than RI in multiple guides. I know you dislike the balance discord, and it seems you don't want to acknowledge anything regarding it. Your loss, but stop spreading false information!

The notion is that NF is supposed to be our "support" ability. That NF happens to be more powerful when used as a MT mitigation ability is more or less happenstance and merely points to it being a poorly designed ability (for the purpose of support). The ultimate kicker is that the majority of "reasons" to change NF target requirement aren't actually due to WARs need for self-healing, or need for better party support, rather it's just a wanting desire of players to have increased freedom in healing themselves, like we used to have. Again, it was simply a divisive design choice and the fruits of that decision have born the argumentation we see at present.

If you are going to ask for a re-design, it would be wise to consider that the few jobs that have been redesigned have been a mixed bag, at best. There is no guarantee that a re-design will be better than the current design. Why should someone like myself who's basically fine playing Warrior be alright with blindly rolling over on a design change? Give me something worth considering, allow me to compare and contrast the ideas. If you can't at least do that then I, nor anyone else, has any obligation to tag along.