5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

No, WAR doesn't need more than just a few QoL changes.

>Conditional invuln.

It is anything but. It takes a few milliseconds at most to click on the environment prior to hitting Holmgang. If you cannot do something as baseline simple as that, then I genuinely wonder if you are fit to play this game. Let's also not forget that Holmgang is by and far the strongest invuln cooldown due to its meager four minute CD.

>IC clipping IR

I'm sorry, but what are you even talking about? If you're clipping IC into IR then that is 100% a problem with you, because it means you are not spending your Nascent Chaos buff prior to entering Inner Release and, if you are doing that regularly, that is once again a you problem.

>WAR doesn't have an OT skill

Nascent Flash says hello. If you aren't using this ability as Warrior then you are severely playing the job wrong, as Nascent Flash is easily the single strongest skill in the job's arsenal outside of Holmgang.

>WAR is empty

Hate to break it to you, but WAR only has around 2 APM less on average than GNB, which is often considered the busiest tank. On an entirely different point, Warrior has the single strongest party mitigation tool with Shake it Off on a single raidwide, with Dark Missionary and Heart of Light only becoming superior in situations where they are capable of mitigating two hits over the duration of a single cast.

TL;DR - Sounds like a lot of *you* problems.

[ArianeEwah]

No, WAR doesn't need more than just a few QoL changes.
[...]
TL;DR - Sounds like a lot of *you* problems.

millktea was right about you. You disagree with literally EVERYONE here in this thread, you are totally confinced that the current state of all tanks is fine EXCEPT that WAR should be 2nd in tank dps (wtf).

There are once again many misinformation in your posts.

Invul: There is no information in the tooltip that holmgang ends as your target gets defeated. It states 8s duration and AS A BONUS it binds the target. If it was INTENDED to end its duration with your target, then the tooltip is simply wrong. Stop defending lazy programming!
Also, we should not be driven to generate a macro, so it only targets ourselves. Macros are not a reliable solution. Neither should we be forced to unselect our target for it to properly work. It is once again not stated in the tooltip, so it's either not clear or not intended. Simple.

Clipping IC: This was stated by mediatour testers as an issue. Not a big issue, once you've figured it out, but it is an issue nonetheless.
It's a 'noob trap' that could simply resolved by giving IC a separate button. WAR has the least button of maybe all jobs - 1 or 2 more buttons will not hurt! Additionally, this 'issue' doesn't even EXIST below level 80 (or 72 for CC).
So, even for the fact it has been stated as an issue since mediatour is proof that it's not a "*you* problem".

WAR OT skill (NF): While millkteas statement about not having an OT skill is wrong, in reality it actually seems about right. In practice NF is rather used as an MT skill instead of RI. It feels more like RI has been replaced by NF rather than gaining an OT skill, because NF' gain outweights RI mitigation in the majority of cases. Unless you plan to increase SiO shield by 2%, RI has rather short usage.

Actions per minute: Where did you get the information that GNB only has 2 more APM than WAR? The whole statement is wrong.
Firstly, APM =/= CPM. APM are actual clicks/Actions Per Minute with mouse/keyboard/controller which included mocements, too. CPM are casts per minute which include only casts/skills and abilities used.
Secondly, in most cases WAR has ~25% less CPM than GNB, rougly 34-36 vs 40-44. GNB isn't the busiest tank for no reason.

tl;dr: stop defending lazy design/programming, and stop projecting your own desire on the majority of playerbase.

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

I disagree with most people in this thread because the overwhelming majority of you are objectively wrong and, frankly, don't understand the job well enough to have any place discussing it if all you're going to do is claim incorrect statements as fact. Firstly, macros are more than fine for non-attack skills. Shirk macro for the #2 party member is literally standard and, so long as the macro is written properly, will never fail to go off on time. If you're so concerned with Holmgang not fading due to a target dying or going untargetable then simply write a macro for it and have the action command repeated sufficient times. This is literally a non-issue. Second of all, IC is also a non-issue. If you consider it an issue to have to hit IC before entering IR then, well, I think you have bigger problems than something as simple as that. Nascent being a "MT skill" primarily is just, entirely wrong. It may be overall more powerful for the Warrior than their targeted party member, but 10% mitigation as well as some variable amount of healing (depending on if you're able to toss a Fell Cleave and/or Inner Chaos into Nascent or not) is overall (most of the time) more powerful than Heart of Stone as far as strength when being used as an OT skill. APM, CPM, arguing which of the terms to use is nothing more than semantics because they're both used to mean the same shit, and the fact of the matter is that WAR is only around 2 APM/CPM below GNB and these are taken from kill logs which means that, before you try to come up with some ludicrous counterpoint, that the numbers are accurate.

Frankly if you want me to stop "disagreeing with everyone" then everyone in this thread should stop trying to shove objectively incorrect statements as if they're factual. I'd also recommend they learn the difference between a personal distaste and something that is a legitimate issue, as the two are entirely different things. You may not like Fell Cleave and Inner Chaos sharing a key but that does not mean it is an issue, because it isn't. In fact, avoiding clipping Inner Chaos into Inner Release actually adds even a small amount of active thinking required to the job's rotation that some of you seem to think is so boring, since you are actively losing DPS if you clip IC into IR or do not spend an IC charge before going into IR and thus overcap on the cooldown reduction on Infuriate.

On a final point, your last comment is extremely amusing to me, as the only ones projecting their own desires onto the playerbase are a select few people in this thread. I am simply stating that Warrior is, as it stands, mostly fine. Some of you, on the other hand, have all these various ways that you want the job to be changed so that it fits the precise desires of you and only you, and everyone else be damned. Sorry to break it to you, but it don't work that way friendo.

[ArianeEwah]

nonsense

Really? NF is not used as MT? I knew you neglect "most common" knowledge, but this is stretching it.
Not only are most warriors using it as healing/mitigation skill in most cases, it is proven to be more efficient than RI in multiple guides. I know you dislike the balance discord, and it seems you don't want to acknowledge anything regarding it. Your loss, but stop spreading false information!

Stop mixing APM and CPM, they are completely different terms! APM is a general term for all games, whereas CPM is more or less exclusive to MMOs. I don't know where you take your "Kill logs" from, but I haven't found any logs from GNB or WAR in e.g. E2s, where any GNB was below 41, or any WAR that was above 37 CPM. If you GNB with 2 more APM/CPM whatever than your WAR, guess then you play GNB wrong.

But this job should not rely on CPM to be competetive, but don't expect anyone to agree with you that you want the highest self-healing tank with the least button-float to be 2nd top DPS tank.

Your whole understanding of the current tank state is so lacking. The majority wishes for a redesign. Whether the proposed suggestions in this thread are good, bad, right or wrong, doesn't matter. You simply sign them as 'wrong', whereas you are already wrong for not seeing an issue in the first place. Like I said before, there are even players/streamers that play on a complete different level than us, yet they still acknowledge that certain design flaws cause problems for a even a slim majority.

Yes, I wish for a redesign, and so do many, many others. Otherwise there would be more people playing WAR, or threads like this wouldn't exist, or would have less agreement with them. Right now, WAR is the least played tank in this expansion. WAR is fine balance-wise, but not design-wise, the number proof that much. It's neither exiting, nor is it difficult. It's simply boredom. A MMO is played by many people and as such should be designed for many people, but WAR is not appealing.

But what should I expect from someone who hasn't played any tank pre-ShB, or thinks that BW is fine - also another topic you simply disagree with based on misinformation. You cannot expect any tank player from pre-ShB era to just accept the "downgrade" they got hit with in this expac. I cannot (and will not) explain them to you, you would rightout ignore them, just like you did with all the other issues.

[whiskeybravo]

Really? NF is not used as MT? I knew you neglect "most common" knowledge, but this is stretching it.
Not only are most warriors using it as healing/mitigation skill in most cases, it is proven to be more efficient than RI in multiple guides. I know you dislike the balance discord, and it seems you don't want to acknowledge anything regarding it. Your loss, but stop spreading false information!

The notion is that NF is supposed to be our "support" ability. That NF happens to be more powerful when used as a MT mitigation ability is more or less happenstance and merely points to it being a poorly designed ability (for the purpose of support). The ultimate kicker is that the majority of "reasons" to change NF target requirement aren't actually due to WARs need for self-healing, or need for better party support, rather it's just a wanting desire of players to have increased freedom in healing themselves, like we used to have. Again, it was simply a divisive design choice and the fruits of that decision have born the argumentation we see at present.

If you are going to ask for a re-design, it would be wise to consider that the few jobs that have been redesigned have been a mixed bag, at best. There is no guarantee that a re-design will be better than the current design. Why should someone like myself who's basically fine playing Warrior be alright with blindly rolling over on a design change? Give me something worth considering, allow me to compare and contrast the ideas. If you can't at least do that then I, nor anyone else, has any obligation to tag along.

[Lucy_Pyre]

-a bunch of lunacy-

>"NF is not used as MT?"
I quite literally never said that, so you might wanna stop straight out lying.

APM and CPM can be used for the exact same thing, and the game we're talking about is an MMO, so again, arguing irrelevant semantics just to argue irrelevant semantics.

As to the rest of the nonsense you spouted, much of which you clearly don't even understand, I honestly can't even believe I have to explain this stuff, but I will. Thing is though, since you want to bring up the whole "WAR isn't popular because everyone wants it changed" strawman, here's something that proves that to be a fallacy and that those two statements have no correlation. People are (seemingly) very vocal about wanting a rework to DRK, yet that is still the second most popular tank by an extremely significant margin. It's almost as if possibly, just possibly, WAR isn't as popular because axes and the general "berserker" thematic just isn't a very popular aesthetic, and this would also conveniently be an accurate assessment. I will repeat as I have said many times in this thread, and seemingly will continue to have to do so; if you don't like the job then feel free to not play it. That is exactly why we have four different tanks to play, because there's one for everyone's preferred playstyle. Funny how that works, huh?

[ArianeEwah]

>"NF is not used as MT?"
I quite literally never said that, so you might wanna stop straight out lying.

You did:

Nascent being a "MT skill" primarily is just, entirely wrong.

Whether NF was intended to be support skill - just as whiskeybravo explained very well - it's mostly used over RI. It is then not entirely wrong, may it be primarily or secondary, it's just an universal tank skill that can be used for both cases.

Your posts just scream: "hey, I just started tanks this expansion, they are perfectly fine as they are"...
Well, guess what, there were tanks before you, there are people that have experienced tanks in a game you had to maintain aggro, optimize damage, maybe manage TP, or even sacrifice damage for survivability. Now tanks don't have actual stances, so we lost the ability to stance dance, maintaining aggro is done by AA'ing, there is no "damage optimizing", and we lost a resource to manage. Even when the other tanks just hated stance dancing, it was a special feature to WAR, especially since Inner Beast and FC were completely different skills. IB had lower damage, but you gained mitigation and self heal, whereas FC was/is your nuke skill. Losing these aspects almost both skills is hard enough, as IB is just damage now (and not even high damage), and FC got nerfed for the sake of "spaming" it. WAR also was a "must-have" for every party due to their party utility with slashing debuffing, you felt important - gone. The job got taken away almost all the aspects that made warrior the warrior, but gains so few - or even less actually - it simply loses its identity. The self-healing is forever lost below 76 and cramped up into a single ability - NF. We also lost the unique tank stance that increased HP instead of simply providing passive mitigation. Now it's just a passive trait we don't have to manage either.

Too many design choices have removed the active parts of tanking, and moved them to passives. What's left is the rotation. And 80% of our rotation barely affects the actual performance, the dps mechanics are just not exciting nor are they unsatisfacory. The rotation is so "stark and stiff" there is no room for GCD variation, or optimizing.
Maybe, not everything from pre-ShB was justified, maybe it was necessary to step down on some choices to balance all tanks. Yet, the choices made to tanks led to the most passive tank play possible, compared to pre-ShB tanks are barely actively tanking.

It wouldn't be as bad when there was at least diversity - and that's where I take your last statement apart. Are there really four different tanks, when at least 2 have such an identical gameplay? DRK is WAR copy-paste with an edgy outer appearance. Or in other words: we got 1 job for the prize of 2 jobs. They may have their own little gimmicks, but at the core they are the same disguised with make-up. It's not hard to see where most manpower went in designing tanks (or jobs in general). GNB probably has the most unique dps rotation of all tanks, DRK and WAR got the short straw here.

Tanks in general got simplified while WAR gained (almost) nothing new, or just old stuff in new form, and probably lost the most "action".

...could be worse tho, tank dps rotation could've been like healer dps rotation, lol.

[Lucy_Pyre]

You did

You.... you don't even understand basic English, do you? Because where you claim I said that, it is NEVER SAID IN THE SLIGHTEST. Seriously, do you understand English? I said that Nascent was not "only primarily a main tank skill" which MEANS that if is used as both MT and OT and is useful for BOTH roles and purposes. Christ, I'm not even going to take the time to read anything else you've said at this point because this point alone has me beyond the point of being able to take you seriously. Learn basic reading comprehension before you quote me again.

[Shurrikhan]

You did [say that "Nascent is not used as MT"]:

Except, she didn't. Observe:

Nascent being a "MT skill" primarily is just, entirely wrong.

@ArianeEwah

Saying that Nascent's purpose is not primarily as an MT skill is not the same thing as saying that it is not used while MT, or even that it's in no way an MT skill.

The purpose of my extra long mouse pad is not primarily to be a wrist rest when using my keyboard, yet it works fine as such alongside its main purpose.

Now, I'll agree with you here that there's no point in calling Nascent an OT skill in particular -- except perhaps in that its highest throughput is achieved only when both you can maximize your healing and your target can maximize the mitigation it provides through high damage intake over the duration -- but you've completely twisted her words here.

[whiskeybravo]

Tanks in general got simplified while WAR gained (almost) nothing new, or just old stuff in new form, and probably lost the most "action".

I certainly can't disagree with the general assessment. My focus is mainly that it's hard to trust SE to fix all WARs woes with a re-work. MCH re-work didn't really fix the underlying ping-related issues. SMN and SCH were borderline abandoned. Hell our caster raided on SMN from HW all through SB but hasn't even wanted to play it since ShB released. Healers in general had it pretty rough and have had to have some adjustments since their redesign. And again there's still a lot of mixed commotion over DRK. So it's just very hard to believe any sort of WAR "re-work" is going to accomplish what we all want it to accomplish. They've definitely had to put effort into fixing their fixes. So I'd rather just take a step-by-step approach, make some minor adjustments to specific functionality here and there rather then tear it all down and build again. Because there's very little to indicate that a total rebuild would be worth pursuing.

NF for example, I just feel like if they take away the target requirement it defeats the purpose of it being a support-oriented ability. If it's primarily used as a MT cooldown already, it's only going to be used as a MT cooldown if the restriction is removed. The notion of disconnecting it from a target requirement implies as much, it certainly wouldn't see more use as a support ability if it were removed. I like the idea of NF as a support ability, it's unique with it's damage reduction + healing. The main problem is that it's so much more powerful as a self cooldown (under certain conditions) that it ends up undermining the support aspect of it.

But I really don't know the best way to fix it. A few ideas I've tossed around in my head would be either baking self-heal into our beast gauge moves, or perhaps something like basing NF's heal on a flat potency per action instead of scaling with damage (this would at least free it up to be used in any part of the rotation instead of needing to line up with burst). Separating it from RI and making RI either self or party cast might work too, but this feels kinda basic like PLD Intervention. Not sure, but the point being there's a lot things we can discuss without having to tear it all down.