Thread: 5.0 WAR is a disappointment

Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Dark Mind is useful in the current savage tier as well. Tank lasers and buster preys are magical, Shadowflame is magical, pretty sure Black Smokers mini busters are magical, and the non-stack buster of Dual Earthen Fists is magical. All are busters that you mitigate, rather than invuln. Giving Dark Mind clear uses in every fight. Also, Delirum and Inner Release have the same cooldown but the points that they get used in the rotation is different. Dark Knight typically uses their first Delirium after the 5th GCD of the fight whereas Warrior uses the first Inner Release after the fourth GCD. This is a slight difference, yes, but as someone who has primarily played WAR in the current savage tier and has had very little IR issues in Titan, it very obviously make a difference. So as I said previously, the only time that IR is reliably cucked in Titan is getting car 2nd in phase 1. Otherwise it all lines up just fine.

Edit: Anyone trying to claim that any tank has better mitigation than DRK gets a 'lol' from me. TBN is so hilariously strong that you can't even try to make that claim.

Dark mind is only useful in 1 fight. E2S. E1S its physical and % baised damage so Dark Mind is almost completely useless. E2S its good. E3S its fine if you aren't running the WAR/DRK comp. If you are... you don't need it at all because just invuln all TBs and then use everything else during Smokers. Even if you arent running that comp... you don't need DRK mind as it makes such a small difference during smokers because all your CDs should be up by then.

Titan... all his TBs are physical so Dark Mind is a dead skill in titan. (Yes, Megalith is physical I have tested this with fient usage. All his AoEs are magical).

Lol as much as you want but Raw and TBN have the same cooldown, but one has no cost while another does. Plus math wise % is better than a shield when taking large damage and for the follow up hit making it easier on healers.

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Dark mind is only useful in 1 fight. E2S. E1S its physical and % baised damage so Dark Mind is almost completely useless. E2S its good. E3S its fine if you aren't running the WAR/DRK comp. If you are... you don't need it at all because just invuln all TBs and then use everything else during Smokers. Even if you arent running that comp... you don't need DRK mind as it makes such a small difference during smokers because all your CDs should be up by then.

Titan... all his TBs are physical so Dark Mind is a dead skill in titan. (Yes, Megalith is physical I have tested this with fient usage. All his AoEs are magical).

Lol as much as you want but Raw and TBN have the same cooldown, but one has no cost while another does. Plus math wise % is better than a shield when taking large damage and for the follow up hit making it easier on healers.

I realize this is a WAR thread and I'm sorry. WAR is my favorite co-tank on DRK, and I love reading this thread.

In my post history, I've detailed how Dark Mind usage needs to be considered as a Rampart replacement for auto attacks or combined with other CDs to negate damage, and with that in mind, I'll be using that logic for a good majority of this post.

E1S: Saying that Dimensional Shift, and Eden's Gravity are percentage based does not negate his ORIGINAL point of Dark Mind being useful for Tank lasers and the Tank Bleed. Those are ACTUALLY magic, and are frequently mixed with other tank mechanics that increase the overall damage taken. TBN+Dark Mind+Rampart is very high value, and depending on the fight timeline (I'm using the first usage of Tank bleed) you can catch multiple mechanics with the same CD combination. Dark Mind encourages this kind of play style. Most tanks has a way to mitigate percentage based damage. WAR with Thrill of Battle and buffed Shake It Offs, DRK has TBN for themselves/person who isn't topped, PLD has Divine Veil for party, and GNB just has to deal. But I wouldn't say Camouflage is a BAD skill in E1S because it doesn't mitigate gravity, I just use it on the Spears instead, and leverage it's longer duration for auto-attacks. I wouldn't say Sheltron is bad compared to TBN because I can't block percentage-based damage, i just prioritize double busters and AoEs. Different use cases.

E2S: Dark Mind is really good in here, but only because it can actually serve as the Rampart-replacement for auto attacks to it's maximum capability. You just have to decide whether you need the 20 second or 10 second duration, or combine the two depending on what the boss is doing at the time.

E3S: Yeah, Leviathan's auto attacks are physical, and literally every buster except 1 (that is dependent on tank comp) is invuln'd. You know what it isn't invuln'd? Tsunami 2 lasers and the Tank flares. Tidal Roar is magic! Kitchen sinking during Black Smokers means instead of taking minor damage, you're taking literally zero damage. If anything, this is the exact opposite situation to E2S. Instead of having Dark Mind casting a wide net over an entire fight that you can pick and alter your cooldown map with, Leviathan has VERY specific points where Dark Mind usage is practically being thrown in your face, because you don't have any other options to use it elsewhere. Both tanks are being auto'd, so both tanks sacrifice Rampart for auto-attacks under increased damage situations. (Tidal Roar) It's the same mentality to invulns. If it's up, and I'm not going to need it later within it's own recast timer, I'm going to press it. The argument that it makes a small difference is a slightly slippery slope. It doesn't matter how small of an impact pressing Dark Mind is, because it's an objective benefit over pressing nothing. You can apply that same sentence to things like Reprisal, Addle, Feint, or actually any tank damage you've mathed out to be survivable with only one cooldown or even no cooldowns. jUsT HeaL mOrE. That's a bit hyperbolic, I know, but if the opportunity is there to stack CDs, or at the very least, DM yourself during an AoE so you get topped easier, why not take it? It makes it easier on healing. It's a bit irrelevant now that we have so much gear, but that will change when we prog something new.

E4S: I have severe pushback against Dark Mind being useless in this fight. It's not exclusively for busters! On surface level, as you said, every AoE is magic. That is a GOOD thing for Dark Mind, because if you're MTing, the last thing you want is an AoE to cleave out a fourth of your health bar. Better to TBN+Dark Mind to zero out voice in phase 1 just be safe. Would TBN alone be fine? Yeah, absolutely, but it's intelligent CD mapping to place it there, and directly free up Rampart as a result for Crumbling Down prox markers, getting whacked by Phase 1 Titan in general, and it makes it so much easier on the healers, a point you yourself pointed out for Raw Int. Also, all of Titan's tankbusters are NOT physical! Stonecrusher, based on the same logic from E3S, is a complete non-factor because all of them are invuln'd regardless of comp.

That means we're left with two busters. Earthen Anguish, which is magic, and Megalith, physical. First Earthen Anguish lets me do a simple combination of at minimum Dark Mind + Rampart, and the TBN is now free to give to my co-tank, since they lack Dark Mind on the attack. Equalizes the damage, and makes the follow up early Phase 2 Megalith more even from an HP percentage, particularly if Phase 1 Titan ends in Landslide form, or I am not targeted for Fault Line, using up my Shadow Wall. Second Eathern is kinda whatever, use whatever you want, Dark Mind, TBN the MT, GG. But the third? The third Earthen, and Phase 3 in general, is MASSIVE in Dark Mind's favor, because again, unless you invuln it, you only need Dark Mind not to take a significant amount of damage. This means you have free'd up TBN for yourself if MTing, or your co-tank if they are and are not invulning AND if you place it late enough, it bleeds into the following Voice. Now you have Rampart and your personal cooldown for the auto-attacks and marker explosions, and your 30% for the megalith stack. By the time you even get past the last Megalith, you have Dark Mind again, and can either delegate it for the final merry go round pulse with TBN or on the last tumult/voice combos of the fight. A similar logic can be applied to GNB Camouflage during 1st and 3rd MGR while saving Rampart and Nebula for the busters. You just need to apply Dark Mind in a different way, and emphasize it's strengths as opposed to lamenting it can't do literally everything in a less optimal way. And this is without me saying that all of Phase 2 Titan's auto attacks are magic. Dark Mind is not a dead skill in E4S, it's a major reason I did all my weapon farming on DRK over other tanks. (others being TBN or me being a one trick, pick your poison)

(Random Fact: With a WAR/PLD or DRK(risky WHM) comp, you can invuln every megalith as well by combining the last stonecrusher and last megalith into one ten second invulnerability skill. Very high value, super useful, saves Feint for only Phase 1 and Phase 3 autoattacks, which are honestly better ideas)

Raw Int/HoS are 25 seconds. TBN is 15 seconds. That's 10 seconds of difference, which seriously adds up if you're pressing both those skills on cooldown during a phase. Within just 1 minute, you got an entire two usages over RI/HoS. Just gotta plan mana for it. TBN will negate around ~35K (25%) HP worth of damage, regardless of cooldowns.

If you take 150K worth of damage, and ONLY use RI, you're scrapping 30K off that number, and that exact number will go down the lower the incoming damage is, AND the more CDs you stack on it due to multiplicative buff stacking, whilst TBN does not suffer from that issue. Gets to the point we have now where even within it's own kit, Nascent Flash is better than Raw Int in an overwhelming amount of situations. Due to that, I have reservations about saying it's easier to heal RI versus proper TBNs.

(Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fTyzTGXXk/edit ; Page 29)

I will compliment Nascent Flash, despite being as clunky as it is, it seriously provides results if optimized. I notice the difference when I have a WAR co-tank using that skill properly.

One of TBN's biggest benefits is not only it's pure shielding value, but also the fact that it doesn't care what you get hit with or what buffs you have. As long as 25% of your HP goes down, it's negation is all-encompassing. Proper TBN usage, because it gives Dark Arts, does not have a cost for your MP or your rotation unless you're demolishing 13K MP under burst, where EoS needs to be delayed until raid buffs.


To be on-topic, I miss 4.1 WAR. I disliked the IR change in general, but I think it would've been okay with auto-Crit and potencies split throughout the kit rather than jamming them all in the IR phase. Adding DH on top has just made melding annoying. And removing higher Beast Guage = higher crit rate felt unneeded. Had to move all that optimization potential and move it into NF healing high scores.

Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Sorry but no, you're wrong. The raid damage in E1S are % HP but the busters are not. The tank lasers and prey busters are both magical damage, and Dark Mind is useful there. The dual busters of Dual Earthen Fists (the artillery ones) are, in fact, magic damage and Dark Mind does work on those.

OMG, who needs a cooldown for tank lasers? The dot is nice but all tanks will have all thier cooldowns likely avaiable to them if they need it. All tanks just Invuln the tankbusters. Its useful(ish) but not a major "OMG MUST NEED" state. Sure it can be nice in prog, but we aren't in prog are we now?

Alex? Sure as sh*t Dark Mind is great, something all the other tanks would likely kill for in that fight. This is the example I am trying to point out to where people are over valuing Dark Mind in Savage. ^^^
Dark Mind isn't a must need with many of the pointed out examples people are shoe horning in.
Why are you using Dark Mind when Rampart works just as well in Tsunami 2 and is off cooldown going into smokers? The one time it would be nice to use. Now lets talk about Titan. What is the main Tankbuster to fear in Titan? Megalith and... stonecrusher. There is only one point people will care about the artillary shot of the split tankbuster. Its during final phase... which would be nice... if it weren't for the fact 90% of groups are going to have their first tank invuln the Megalith before final phase opening all tanks to all their cooldowns for the dangerous artillary during final phase and then the other tank invulns the final stonecrusher. So again, its not really "OMG THIS SO USEFUL hhuuuuurrr" its nice, but the fight can be done easily without even using it and see almost 0 difference. Maybe, its useful going into 2nd phase with the first megalith combo, but if you have a WAR your just going to have him solo it, so that one megalith I will give DRK credit on, but that's one small instance in the fight.
Now for the E1S dots, yes, Dark Mind can be quite useful there, but most of the time its a healer paying attention check as I have seen myself die to the dot even when using almost all my cooldowns on it. (Healers not watching Tank HP with upcoming % baised hit).

People can say all the time "hey drk has great surival" and to that I would agree, to me its close to WAR but I would give WAR the edge just due to Raw being better for the folow up damage to a TB which can kill tanks (seen it happen too much even as a DRK in ULT) even with proper cooldown usage. It gives more wiggle room than TBN. TBN aslo has the issue of the mana for some if you aren't planning with Raw being 'free'. Now TBN is > than NF, you aren't going to see me even try to defend NF, never. NF is crap for everyone but the WAR to self heal. 10% is not good enough to consider and the heal because its 50% for the Co-tank and the duration make the heal, laughable (for them, not the WAR). Finally... I don't think I need to mention Living Dead at this point. Like come on. Im not allowed to use living dead until Alex in Ultimate due to having a AST/SCH comp with a WAR. Its a handicap that hurts everyone.
WAR is just a better tank overall than DRK just for mitigation side and to heal than a DRK, but again, that means nothing because mitigation in these fights is pretty darn straight forward so that strength doesn't matter, all that matters is damage and party mitigation. GNB has the damage, PLD has the damage as well and the party support while also having a consistant damage even with downtime due to requiscat timing on mechanics. DRK/WAR can get cucked, but at least DRK isn't chained to delirum, unlike WAR chained to IR.