5.1 Crafting Feedback Thread

[NanaWiloh]

I see plenty of people crafting in the 3 towns in-game.

The forums is only a very small sample size of the game, and it tended to be the vocal minority who would frequent the forums the most. Just because the forums have gotten a bit more quiet, doesn't mean crafting is "dead", in fact, it seems very much alive. At least... maybe not the hardest of the hardcore endgame crafting, but then.... *shrug* Maybe that's a good thing?

Crafting should not be for the 1% of the playerbase. Or not even the 10%. The way crafting was before, it was just too much of a chore for so little return unless you went all the way which took more time than raiding, which was a bit ridiculous.

Got to agree its far from dead, during peak hours here on Lamia there are crafters in all 3 towns crafting away. Also have seen my fair share of low level crafters hard at work leveling up. Forums may be silent but there are more crafters out and about now then there ever was in ARR or Heavensward.

[DrWho2010]

You do realize if anyone is giving away items due to quitting, we'll give them to friends and FC who deserve them, not forum trolls.

OMG you really need to recheck your sense of humor. maybe craft a new one eh lol

[Maeka]

OMG you really need to recheck your sense of humor. maybe craft a new one eh lol

How's he supposed to do that when crafting is D - E - D?

[Solarra]

Just because the forums have gotten a bit more quiet, doesn't mean crafting is "dead", in fact, it seems very much alive.

I agree that saying 'crafting is dead' is an exaggeration. However, I think the proof of these changes is going to come later on. If more people are crafting once they have their Ishgard rewards and all the hype has died down, then we can say it's been a success.
However, I loved crafting as it was and I'm worried that it's not going to have the same appeal for me going forward. Time to consider if I really need to stay subbed continually or if I should be looking for other games and pastimes. I'll wait and see for now but I'm not optimistic.

Crafting should not be for the 1% of the playerbase. Or not even the 10%. The way crafting was before, it was just too much of a chore for so little return unless you went all the way which took more time than raiding, which was a bit ridiculous.

I'm glad you're enjoying the changes and finding it fun. From Square's point of view, I can see that ditching people like me, who were a minority, would make sense if it brings more people into crafting than before, as long as they stay. However, if the majority get to endgame and find crafting dull, repetitive and too simple, it's going to backfire.

Personally, I don't see the problem with having niche activities in an MMO. Surely it's unrealistic to expect everyone to like everything on offer? Ultimate is niche, PVP is niche and I don't do either, but they each keep a dedicated core of players happy and paying their subs.

Crafting and gathering were definitely niche before, they are in most mmos, which makes me doubt they will ever gain mass-appeal. WoW attempted to give all players every craft and gathering class with the garrison, and while the playerbase was initially delighted with having easy access to everything, boredom soon set in.
I honestly expect the same will happen here, unless they do something to keep those of us who liked the old crafting happy (but then people who didn't like the grind and the complexity are going to object to being excluded from endgame, I think). It does make me sad to see FFXIVs award-winning crafting system gutted like this.

[Maeka]

I agree that saying 'crafting is dead' is an exaggeration. However, I think the proof of these changes is going to come later on. If more people are crafting once they have their Ishgard rewards and all the hype has died down, then we can say it's been a success.
However, I loved crafting as it was and I'm worried that it's not going to have the same appeal for me going forward. Time to consider if I really need to stay subbed continually or if I should be looking for other games and pastimes. I'll wait and see for now but I'm not optimistic.

Yoshi-P wants you to play other games now and then. He never wanted you to sink all of your playtime into one single game, because that creates stagnation and will cause a player to get bored of a game no matter what. He wants you to take periodic breaks, to go play other games, and then when the next bit of story is released, to come back to this one and it'll feel more fresh when you pick your adventures back up again.

This is by design.

I'm glad you're enjoying the changes and finding it fun. From Square's point of view, I can see that ditching people like me, who were a minority, would make sense if it brings more people into crafting than before, as long as they stay. However, if the majority get to endgame and find crafting dull, repetitive and too simple, it's going to backfire.

Is there a reason crafting (or any activity in the game) absolutely must go on forever and ever and ever during an expansion? Can't there be some sense of fulfillment when you reach your goals and you take a break? Perpetually dangling the carrot in front of you only to yoink it away juuuuuust as you get barely a nibble on it is tiresome after awhile. It makes one want to give up chasing the thing they will never get to have.

Unless you are ridiculously dedicated, you would never get maxed out in crafting in SB and definitely not during HW. Only the ultra-rich with powerful connections ever did that sort of thing while it was current content. Rich got richer, and....everybody else eventually gave up and waited till next expansion after a point.

Personally, I don't see the problem with having niche activities in an MMO. Surely it's unrealistic to expect everyone to like everything on offer? Ultimate is niche, PVP is niche and I don't do either, but they each keep a dedicated core of players happy and paying their subs.

Adventurer Content (Dungeons, etc) has a scale. You have Duty Finder on one end of the spectrum and Ultimate Trials on the other end, and you got everything in-between. MSQ dungeons, Normal Raids, Extreme Trials, Savage Raids, and Ultimate Trials.

With crafting you have....grindy, grindier, and most grindy? There was no in-between. You got to the current expansion's content and you hit a brick wall of needing lots of money to buy tools from people who were able to start the expansion with the ludicrously powerful maxed out stuff from the previous expansion. These people started with an unfair advantage, and they were already waaaaaaay ahead of you before you even started. What was the point of even trying at that point, unless you didn't mind blowing several million gil on stuff to get you started.... and even then, it was a painful slow grind. Wasn't "difficult" as far as skill goes, just took forever, grinding away.

Crafting and gathering were definitely niche before, they are in most mmos, which makes me doubt they will ever gain mass-appeal. WoW attempted to give all players every craft and gathering class with the garrison, and while the playerbase was initially delighted with having easy access to everything, boredom soon set in.

I think you missed the point of what was wrong with Garrisons.

The problem wasn't with the Garrisons or their limited ability to gain access to crafts you did not have yourself. That wasn't the problem.

The problem was there was nothing ELSE to do in the entire expansion other than your daily heroic and weekly raid run.

There were no daily quests, no extra side content, nothing. Just the daily dungeon and weekly raid. Nothing else. For a good long while until they FINALLY added Tanaan Jungle. People were tired of sitting in LFG (their version of Duty Finder) in their Garrisons twiddling their thumbs because Blizzard forgot to add actual content outside of dungeons and raids.

That and you know, your garrisons gave you all the materials you ever wanted, without you having to lift a finger.

I honestly expect the same will happen here, unless they do something to keep those of us who liked the old crafting happy (but then people who didn't like the grind and the complexity are going to object to being excluded from endgame, I think). It does make me sad to see FFXIVs award-winning crafting system gutted like this.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they made 3 and 4 star crafting difficult. I'm fine with that. I was not fine with no-star crafting being so hard to get into and/or it being so difficult to get to max level until most of the way through an expansion when the crafting tribe was finally released. I shouldn't have to wait until three quarters of the way through an expansion to be able to meld my own gear, thanks.

You can have your difficult 3 and 4 star crafts. That's fine. Just as long as I can get to max level reasonably and do at least basic crafts for myself. If I need a crafted weapon, armor, or food I shouldn't be forced to put months of grind in to do basic crafting, and/or pay ludicrous prices at the MB. A weapon shouldn't cost 100,000+. That's just ridiculous.

Craft classes took 10x the amount of work any adventurer class ever did, and the disparity was just off the charts. Now it's been evened out a bit more, though I would argue that craft classes are a bit faster to level, but eh. It's not like you're going to show up to a raid with your blacksmith or something. *shrug*

But either way, you can have your high-star crafting being hard. I'm fine with that.

[NanaWiloh]

I agree that saying 'crafting is dead' is an exaggeration. However, I think the proof of these changes is going to come later on. If more people are crafting once they have their Ishgard rewards and all the hype has died down, then we can say it's been a success.
However, I loved crafting as it was and I'm worried that it's not going to have the same appeal for me going forward. Time to consider if I really need to stay subbed continually or if I should be looking for other games and pastimes. I'll wait and see for now but I'm not optimistic.




I'm glad you're enjoying the changes and finding it fun. From Square's point of view, I can see that ditching people like me, who were a minority, would make sense if it brings more people into crafting than before, as long as they stay. However, if the majority get to endgame and find crafting dull, repetitive and too simple, it's going to backfire.

Personally, I don't see the problem with having niche activities in an MMO. Surely it's unrealistic to expect everyone to like everything on offer? Ultimate is niche, PVP is niche and I don't do either, but they each keep a dedicated core of players happy and paying their subs.

Crafting and gathering were definitely niche before, they are in most mmos, which makes me doubt they will ever gain mass-appeal. WoW attempted to give all players every craft and gathering class with the garrison, and while the playerbase was initially delighted with having easy access to everything, boredom soon set in.
I honestly expect the same will happen here, unless they do something to keep those of us who liked the old crafting happy (but then people who didn't like the grind and the complexity are going to object to being excluded from endgame, I think). It does make me sad to see FFXIVs award-winning crafting system gutted like this.

Hardcore crafts can become just as bored as casual crafters. I watched a friend who is a hardcore crafter and loved the old system spend hours afk in front of the MB during ARR and Heavensward. Reason he did this was simple he got all best crafting gear full bis melds could make anything HQ. Once he reached that point he had nothing left to strive for got bored and played the MB which didnt require him to really play the game at all.

[tdb]

With crafting you have....grindy, grindier, and most grindy? There was no in-between. You got to the current expansion's content and you hit a brick wall of needing lots of money to buy tools from people who were able to start the expansion with the ludicrously powerful maxed out stuff from the previous expansion. These people started with an unfair advantage, and they were already waaaaaaay ahead of you before you even started. What was the point of even trying at that point, unless you didn't mind blowing several million gil on stuff to get you started.... and even then, it was a painful slow grind. Wasn't "difficult" as far as skill goes, just took forever, grinding away.

Which expansion are we talking about here? I found the jump from ARR to HW to be moderately challenging for a few classes, but I think that was partly due to my own boneheadedness of refusing to craft myself gear that would have made the quest rewards obsolete. Eventually I found a class whose quest didn't require a HQ item and was able to work up from there. HW to StB was a breeze. Quest items were easier to craft so the basic Lv60 unstarred HQ gear was easily enough to craft them. During StB I caught up with the game and crafted myself a set of endgame gear and overmelded it. As such I don't have direct experience from the StB to ShB threshold, but looking at the numbers the ShB entry-level gear is only a little bit more difficult to craft than the basic Lv70 unstarred gear (3149/14071 vs 2952/13187 progress/quality). It's easily the smallest expansion gap so far. You should be able to cross it without having to buy any gear.

[Solarra]

Unless you are ridiculously dedicated, you would never get maxed out in crafting in SB and definitely not during HW. Only the ultra-rich with powerful connections ever did that sort of thing while it was current content. Rich got richer, and....everybody else eventually gave up and waited till next expansion after a point.

I know you didn't enjoy crafting in past expansions and that's fair enough, but it really wasn't that hard. I maxed out this character in HW, when I started playing (and yes, it was tough and it took me months; it was also very satisfying). I maxed her out again in SB, raised a second alt to max level in all crafts (Not BiS gear or fully melded) and started a third. I made a fourth alt on a new server so I could play with friends after the EU data centre split, and I max levelled his crafters and gatherers out, too. A bit mad? Maybe, but it didn't cost a fortune and I had plenty of time to do other things.

Levelling used to be challenging (though I agree it needed a bit of a nerf), and when you got to endgame, the crafting was challenging too. It was content that had a very long life for those of us that enjoyed it.

You never needed millions unless you bought your way to the top by purchasing your class-quest and leve turn-ins and paid someone to make your gear. Scrip gear was very affordable with Custom Deliveries and quite good enough for all but the highest recipes.
I know a lot of players disliked omni-crafters and assumed we were all super rich, but in truth all you had to do was put in time and effort; if you couldn't do that, then you could get to exactly the same place with just a little time and a lot of gil.


Taking Breaks
As to Yoshi wanting us to go and play something else, I understood him to mean,
'If you are bored or feeling burned out, you should go and play something else'. Not that we should only stay subbed for part of each expansion, after which Square would rather not take our money.


Garrisons

The problem wasn't with the Garrisons or their limited ability to gain access to crafts you did not have yourself. That wasn't the problem.

The problem was there was nothing ELSE to do in the entire expansion other than your daily heroic and weekly raid run...
...That and you know, your garrisons gave you all the materials you ever wanted, without you having to lift a finger.

Personally I did find the Garrison boring. Getting everything on a plate meant absolutely no feeling of achievement and was very dull indeed. Rather similar to how I feel about crafting in FFXIV right now.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer. As I said above, time will tell if the changes are a success. If a whole lot of new people take up crafting in ShB, enjoy it and stick with it, then it will prove the drastic reductions in both difficulty and levelling speed were needed, even though I personally feel they might have gone too far.
However it turns out, I do hope they do something to make endgame crafts interesting for those of us who are feeling a bit bored and unchallenged right now.

[NanaWiloh]

Only things that made the old system hard were 1. RNG: To slow you and screw you over 2. Skill Redunacy: Huge amount of skills that did the same thing 3. Eventual button bloat: Adds more skills and confusion for anyone trying to learn crafting to figure out. 2 and 3 are what helped create the whistle while you work rotation of spending upwards of 30+ minutes repeating the same skills over and over and over and over. To me the old system was equalivent to restorting a old 69 cuda with 440, taking it out for its first drive just to have some IDIOT at a intersection t-bone it. In one fleeting moment of random chance all your hard work is ruined!!

Sorry dont miss any of that mess. Dont see how anyone could.

[Maeka]

Only things that made the old system hard were 1. RNG: To slow you and screw you over 2. Skill Redunacy: Huge amount of skills that did the same thing 3. Eventual button bloat: Adds more skills and confusion for anyone trying to learn crafting to figure out. 2 and 3 are what helped create the whistle while you work rotation of spending upwards of 30+ minutes repeating the same skills over and over and over and over. To me the old system was equalivent to restorting a old 69 cuda with 440, taking it out for its first drive just to have some IDIOT at a intersection t-bone it. In one fleeting moment of random chance all your hard work is ruined!!

Sorry dont miss any of that mess. Dont see how anyone could.

^^
This is basically what I meant when I talked about how terrible the crafting was in HW and SB.

Sure, you could get through it if you did the same thing over and over and over and over and over again you'd eventually claw your way up, but it just wasn't fun. Especially when all you wanted to do was meld your own gear and the occasional item here and there, and have a little fun leveling the classes.

Especially in HW with how ridiculous they got with the materials, especially Hidden stuff. It was just grind for the sake of grind, to waste as much of your time as possible. And the button bloat? Yeah I have a 3 hotbar setup. That's 36 buttons. And that was only what, 80% of all the buttons available that a class had access to? Thankfully these days I can fit everything in 2 hotbars and a lot of the samey skills have been trimmed. Not ALL of them but a lot of them. I don't need to copy and paste a macro now, I *CAN* just click buttons and not need a macro now for general purpose crafting. The old way where you had ridiculous 30+ step craft macros requiring X amount of GP just to make non-star items was just ludicrous.

No, I don't miss any of that junk.

I get wanting something to be challenging and like I said, hey, fine, make 3 and 4 star crafts hard. I'm OK with that. Just like I'm OK with never clearing a single Savage Raid. That doesn't bother me. But if they turned MSQ duty finder into Extreme Trials then we're gonna have a problem (remember Shinryu when he was first added? I do. I hope they never pull that kind of crap again in MSQ).