Tanking feels unimportant

[BarretOblivion]

Unless you have an immobile add that spawns in one of several locations and the MT needs to pull the boss away to avoid healing/buffing the boss. O3S has this as a mechanic during phase 2.



A9S requires the MT to change the facing of the boss depending on what portions of the Arena are active/inactive and what AoEs the boss is going to use.


Other duties include interrupts, debuffing with Reprisal (most fight now have Raidwides every 30 to 45 seconds to get the two tanks to alternate Reprisals), and Party protect cooldown use. Most fights don't actually fully utilize them so they can easily slip from the mind.



E1-4 normal and savage have been some of the most Tank dull fights we have had in a while. The tanks as a whole have a lot of new common tools with ShB, but those tools are very underutilized.

Reprisaling all AoEs? Oh gawd, the horror! Its not like DPS also have the tools do this as well.... OH WAIT!

Slight movements don't equate to the reason why our jobs are gutted and barren with interaction. DPS have to move, healers have to move too, the only difference is we move first. Oh the horror.

[Quor]

The idea in theory is good, problem is that unless someone has derped hard no party mechanic hits so hard that TBN is needed or is just expected to aoe bomb heal after which will just make healers overheal the bubbled person anyways. Unless tankbusters while raiding as offtank either you dont need to use it almost at all, or only use it when someone has screwed it BADLY, but RDM have the very same issue with their chain res and we know how bad is to rely on people derping badly to be useful. Small mistakes do not need TBN, big mistakes outside training shouldnt be happening on the first place, thats why SMN having a instant res each 60 seconds is better than RDM that can chain insta res outside of meme trainings or crappy dungeon runs, because more than 1 dead person per minute spells disaster

You cant put the situation for example where a player is loaded with vul stacks that needs TBN to survive because those vul stacks shouldnt be there or at worst shouldbt be so high

I disagree. In savage Eden, at least half of your TBN's can be used on someone other than yourself in the party. Of those, at least half will directly result in some healing saved. I.e. if our DNC gets blue during first knockback on Maximum, I can TBN him and the damage he takes from blue that goes through the shield can easily be taken care of via Curing Waltz and Second Wind. Rampart+SW is more than enough for the tank stuff during this time, and both tanks will be healed a lot anyway, so best to throw it on the blue target and save time/healing that way. There are a lot of little optimizations like this one that I rarely see done, but when done they make life so much easier for everyone involved.

[Bhearil]

I disagree. In savage Eden, at least half of your TBN's can be used on someone other than yourself in the party. Of those, at least half will directly result in some healing saved. I.e. if our DNC gets blue during first knockback on Maximum, I can TBN him and the damage he takes from blue that goes through the shield can easily be taken care of via Curing Waltz and Second Wind. Rampart+SW is more than enough for the tank stuff during this time, and both tanks will be healed a lot anyway, so best to throw it on the blue target and save time/healing that way. There are a lot of little optimizations like this one that I rarely see done, but when done they make life so much easier for everyone involved.

And thats the issue, if its optional its not really needed asides of giving the impression of being useful , and a difference of someone needing a healing spell or half of it is irrelevant since they will get healed anyways and only adds to overheal. Only on very specific situations is useful and those cases need to preplanned since on that case the DNC is getting healed unless the healers know that the DNC is gonna use all his healing cds (perhaps the DNC had to use them beforehand for some reason so he need healing anyways)

[MerlinCross]

Only because you're not utilizing them yourself. Also, please clear E3S, and E4S before talking about all of Savage. Progging Titan demanded me to use basically all my tanking tools to make things easier on both myself and the party. To say nothing of Ultimate.

"All my tanking tools", which are? Really the only new tool we got was Arm's Length which, thank god for that don't get me wrong. But I see nothing new in the "Tanking Tools" that we didn't have before other than, more damage.

There's more room for tanks to be given interesting gameplay, absolutely. That, however, is not the discussion being had here. This entire discussion is centered around "tanking is easy now because enmity is gone: Also I'm mad about DRK". If people want tanking to feel 'important' or better, just going back to the old tank stances won't be enough, and would actually be an active detriment in my opinion.

And yet something changed from Stormblood to Shadowbringers to make it feel like my job could be done with a pet. Enmity isn't the only issue, design and expected/predicted numbers are also a problem. However any changes to either seem unlikely or result in gnashing of teeth from the Tank community, so Enmity seems to be the best option to try and work with, and even then it has it's own problems/expectations.

Randomized damage? Complained till nerfed or mathed out and here's your rotation.
More movement? Complained again, by Tanks and Melee DPS.
Spiced up adds? OT's problem, keep hitting the boss MT.
Enmity brought back and spiced up? Oh we want to deal damage/Aggro combo twice and be fine.

I can't think of a design/gameplay addition that won't get instantly solved or complained about which in my mind, vastly limits the design of what you can do with Tanks. Why try to be different or make it feel better if the majority of tanks are so willing to be Blue DPS and argue against trying to be anything else(Which is why I partially suggest going full damage, self sustain gameplay to skip this trend rather than letting it grow slowly).

I'm not saying Tanking had a 'golden age' or something like Enmity of the past was best(Titan tanking Ramuh kinda proves that wrong). Though I have to ask, why would adding in the old tank stances be a detriment? Someone like you and other hardcore raiders should be able to manage it to the point it doesn't exist anyway, so how does that harm your fun?

Something happened during the expansion transition and none of the tanks feel fun to play anymore, at least to me. WAR feels the best mainly due to animations and flow, but I play it more to skip the long timers than "oh boy I want to play WAR for this". Again, not saying there was some Golden Age of tanking, as everyone has their own opinions, but I had more fun back in Heavensward tanking, and even Stormblood. Enmity, Design, and Tank Kits; something about all three has changed or flat removed has affected how tanking feels to me.

Or maybe Tanking was already so Shallow that merely sheering off the details/fat of the role has let me see more clearly that it's a Blue DPS at it's heart. Something I could deal with with the extra bits covering it but laid bare now maybe it is just me growing out of the role.

[Quor]

And thats the issue, if its optional its not really needed asides of giving the impression of being useful , and a difference of someone needing a healing spell or half of it is irrelevant since they will get healed anyways and only adds to overheal. Only on very specific situations is useful and those cases need to preplanned since on that case the DNC is getting healed unless the healers know that the DNC is gonna use all his healing cds (perhaps the DNC had to use them beforehand for some reason so he need healing anyways)

This forum - "entire fights can be pre-planned all the way down to exact GCD and cooldown usage. To do otherwise is sub-optimal play and shouldn't factor into any consideration of job balance or discussion."
Also this forum - "lol maybe something happened before hand I dunno xD"

So, which is it? Answer - it doesn't matter. Both are strong arguments for TBN. Can the fight be planned down to exact cooldown/GCD usage? Then great, you know exactly what's coming and when so you can optimize TBN usage. Can't plan it because something might throw a monkeywrench into the works? Then it's a good thing a tank has a short-CD high-strength instant shield to throw on someone for emergencies. It's almost like what we learned in the level 70 quest - about watching over the weak and protecting them despite the cost to ourselves - is entirely the purpose behind TBN.

[Maeka]

It's almost like what we learned in the level 70 quest - about watching over the weak and protecting them despite the cost to ourselves - is entirely the purpose behind TBN.

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

[Quor]

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

Exactly how I feel. To be honest, if the min/maxers and "optimization uber alles" types left the game and never returned, I wouldn't be sad. The last thing this game needs is it's own version of Tigole and the Poopsockers.

[Yorumi]

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

This is such a gross misscharacterization of people that you're basically posting for no other purpose than pure insult. Insulting people like this in no way helps any discussion, nor does it in any way help your argument or make things better in the community. Just the opposite in fact, it shows an immaturity and ignorance that seeks to do little more than tear other people down to make yourself feel better. If you are so closed minded and unwilling to even properly understand what other people are saying, instead choosing to make up a false image just to insult, then you're not going to make a whole lot of friends or gain much respect.

Many people here have patiently tried to help you understand situations and explain things to you properly and respectfully. If all you care to do in response is greet them with disrespect, contempt, and insult then quite frankly stop posting. You have been shown far more respect on these forums than you deserve or have earned.

[BarretOblivion]

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

Because that's not my job to watch player's HP? That's healers jobs and role. Not only that I'm not gonna clemency if I am not in my requiscat window, it throws of your rotation considerably if you clemency early and don't have 100% MP when its time to requiscat.

Everyone has a role to do damage in Savage/Ultimate. EVERYONE because EVERYONE HAS TO DO X DAMAGE ELSE YOU WIPE.

[Quor]

Because that's not my job to watch player's HP? That's healers jobs and role. Not only that I'm not gonna clemency if I am not in my requiscat window, it throws of your rotation considerably if you clemency early and don't have 100% MP when its time to requiscat.

Everyone has a role to do damage in Savage/Ultimate. EVERYONE because EVERYONE HAS TO DO X DAMAGE ELSE YOU WIPE.

Seen on the tombstone of Barret's raid after a wipe - "At least he didn't screw up his rotation."