Tanking feels unimportant

[Quor]

- I don't have any comments on the DRK changes, since I don't play DRK. A few DRK players in my circle love the job right now, but most forum people seem upset. I'm sorry that DRK isn't satisfying to you this expansion.

My opinion on this is that a lot of people either don't think to or don't want to use TBN as it's intended. Which is to say, a DRK should be keeping one eye on the party list at all times, looking for opportunities to absorb incoming damage via a well-placed TBN. Given that's it's based off of the targets HP, chances are high it will break from any mechanic that goes to a healer or dps. Since it's a dps neutral skill for the DRK as long as it breaks, you stand to purely gain by using it as often as possible to absorb as much damage for others as possible. Any bit of healing that can be saved is another GCD that can be used on Glare or Malefic or Broil. From a pure combo-based perspective DRK is very simple, but the meta game for DRK is less about combos and has shifted to be more more about resource management via MP, Blood and cooldowns. A lot of people haven't adjusted for that yet.

[Bhearil]

My opinion on this is that a lot of people either don't think to or don't want to use TBN as it's intended. Which is to say, a DRK should be keeping one eye on the party list at all times, looking for opportunities to absorb incoming damage via a well-placed TBN. Given that's it's based off of the targets HP, chances are high it will break from any mechanic that goes to a healer or dps. Since it's a dps neutral skill for the DRK as long as it breaks, you stand to purely gain by using it as often as possible to absorb as much damage for others as possible. Any bit of healing that can be saved is another GCD that can be used on Glare or Malefic or Broil. From a pure combo-based perspective DRK is very simple, but the meta game for DRK is less about combos and has shifted to be more more about resource management via MP, Blood and cooldowns. A lot of people haven't adjusted for that yet.

The idea in theory is good, problem is that unless someone has derped hard no party mechanic hits so hard that TBN is needed or is just expected to aoe bomb heal after which will just make healers overheal the bubbled person anyways. Unless tankbusters while raiding as offtank either you dont need to use it almost at all, or only use it when someone has screwed it BADLY, but RDM have the very same issue with their chain res and we know how bad is to rely on people derping badly to be useful. Small mistakes do not need TBN, big mistakes outside training shouldnt be happening on the first place, thats why SMN having a instant res each 60 seconds is better than RDM that can chain insta res outside of meme trainings or crappy dungeon runs, because more than 1 dead person per minute spells disaster

You cant put the situation for example where a player is loaded with vul stacks that needs TBN to survive because those vul stacks shouldnt be there or at worst shouldbt be so high

[Maeka]

Dont try to derail the issue. Problem is that Tanks in general most of the time are the most simplistic classes outside of their burst windows and even then are not THAT intense. After a while it feels so simple that you can eventually turn your brain off and still perform decent your role. One thing is muscular memory and another not needing brain cells to play at a bare minimum level due to how simple it is.

Right now tanks have a very low floor and ceiling which means you "cap" too quick and have no way to improve which derails the motivations since "hey i can no longer improve with this job since i reached its peak, so ill try another job because it gets boring after a while". Self improvement is a great motivator as well as having a fun gameplay, lack both and people wont play that job for long, hell even lacking one too much can be a killer, look how popular monk is right now since its no longer the DPS God and is one of the least played jobs in the game due to his kit being a complete mess and unchanged since 2.0 mostly

FFXIV was always about movement, and dodging the boss's attacks. Which, I might add, is a little difficult if the rotations are too complex. There's a reason I refuse to play Black Mage in duty finder, for example. Trying to keep track of Enochian and not let it drop, finding the time to MOVE out of AoEs and then hurry up and cast a spell to keep the timers ticking is just not fun IMO. Some people find it fun, but I sure don't.

Tanks need to pay attention to new mobs popping in that they need to grab, they need to keep the boss facing away from the rest of the group, and in some fights there's other duties to do, etc.

I really don't need a complex rotation ontop of that. DPS can be a bit more complex because they aren't really needing to pay attention as much, other than the basic where to move mechanics. Tanks have things like paying attention to when a boss is going to use a tank buster or what-not.

I don't mind the easier rotations on tank, because I got other things to do. And I'd like to keep it that way.

If you fall asleep while playing as tank, then maybe you should not tank. Play one of the other roles instead. Or just stay out of Duty Finder and only do Savage/Extreme/Ultimate.

[BarretOblivion]

Tanks need to pay attention to new mobs popping in that they need to grab, they need to keep the boss facing away from the rest of the group, and in some fights there's other duties to do, etc.

I really don't need a complex rotation ontop of that. DPS can be a bit more complex because they aren't really needing to pay attention as much, other than the basic where to move mechanics. Tanks have things like paying attention to when a boss is going to use a tank buster or what-not.

I don't mind the easier rotations on tank, because I got other things to do. And I'd like to keep it that way.

If you fall asleep while playing as tank, then maybe you should not tank. Play one of the other roles instead. Or just stay out of Duty Finder and only do Savage/Extreme/Ultimate.

1) We don't ever need to worry about new adds spawing... that's what an OT is for and add spawning is always going to be at the same time everytime, so that's just memorizating the timing for that.

2) Keep boss facing away from group... okay, have it face away then don't move, problem solved.

3) Like what duties? The only fights where there are other duties you got two tanks so you share them or split them to be more leaning on the OT with the MT doing very little.

4) Of course DPS need to pay attention just as much as tanks. They have to dodge and do more mechanics than Tanks generally, yet they get the most complicated rotations? Come on.

[MerlinCross]

1) We don't ever need to worry about new adds spawing... that's what an OT is for and add spawning is always going to be at the same time everytime, so that's just memorizating the timing for that.

2) Keep boss facing away from group... okay, have it face away then don't move, problem solved.

3) Like what duties? The only fights where there are other duties you got two tanks so you share them or split them to be more leaning on the OT with the MT doing very little.

4) Of course DPS need to pay attention just as much as tanks. They have to dodge and do more mechanics than Tanks generally, yet they get the most complicated rotations? Come on.

To kinda add to this in my own opinion;
1) This is correct and the only time an OT actually feels like an Off Tank(Outside of the tank dying, but most the time I see MT tank die, I expect in Raids the team to fling their bodies off the cliff to get a wipe going faster unless it's prog). Any time the MT has to take an add either it's a gimmick or the boss has gone untargetable.

Solution(?) - Unsure as what could we do that wouldn't get instantly solved. Perhaps an MT Tethered add but even then it probably wouldn't spice things up much.

2) Also correct; the only movement a Tank should be doing after hitting the boss should be towards other mechanics(Placement or getting out the way). There's no challenge really in holding a boss in place, mearly making sure you have the boss facing away when movement mechanics are over.

Solution(?) - If it wasn't for DPS positionals, I'd say more random boss spin cleave/aoe but the boss would also just auto turn back to the Tank when done. More mechanics that make the tank move about and check his angle could be good but done too far you could be facing wipes where the boss is slightly angled wrong and "Mechanic X" happens.

3) Again correct. Not much to do as MT as we don't want to move the boss and even if we did, any 'interaction' mechanic would get interrupted by the boss.

Solution(?) - Not a lot to do here. More Tank swaps could help but it really falls in with number 2 above; We don't want to move the boss unless we have to so just focus on damage output.

4) And yes again, correct, or at least I agree with it. With how simple it is to tank, it's quite easy to feel 'not needed' and bored. DPS wakes me up(Though I have to jump from job to job to not be bored either) and healing I've always been a Panic cat about HP pools. Tanking just feels "I'm doing well" or "Well I made mistake guess I'm dead".

Solution(?) - Personally I'd like to see more stuff for the Tanks to do/manage/worry about, rather than getting a more complicated damage rotation.

[Ultimatecalibur]

1) We don't ever need to worry about new adds spawing... that's what an OT is for and add spawning is always going to be at the same time everytime, so that's just memorizating the timing for that.

Unless you have an immobile add that spawns in one of several locations and the MT needs to pull the boss away to avoid healing/buffing the boss. O3S has this as a mechanic during phase 2.

2) Keep boss facing away from group... okay, have it face away then don't move, problem solved.

A9S requires the MT to change the facing of the boss depending on what portions of the Arena are active/inactive and what AoEs the boss is going to use.

3) Like what duties? The only fights where there are other duties you got two tanks so you share them or split them to be more leaning on the OT with the MT doing very little.

Other duties include interrupts, debuffing with Reprisal (most fight now have Raidwides every 30 to 45 seconds to get the two tanks to alternate Reprisals), and Party protect cooldown use. Most fights don't actually fully utilize them so they can easily slip from the mind.

4) And yes again, correct, or at least I agree with it. With how simple it is to tank, it's quite easy to feel 'not needed' and bored. DPS wakes me up(Though I have to jump from job to job to not be bored either) and healing I've always been a Panic cat about HP pools. Tanking just feels "I'm doing well" or "Well I made mistake guess I'm dead".

Solution(?) - Personally I'd like to see more stuff for the Tanks to do/manage/worry about, rather than getting a more complicated damage rotation.

E1-4 normal and savage have been some of the most Tank dull fights we have had in a while. The tanks as a whole have a lot of new common tools with ShB, but those tools are very underutilized.

[SargentToughie]

E1-4 normal and savage have been some of the most Tank dull fights we have had in a while. The tanks as a whole have a lot of new common tools with ShB, but those tools are very underutilized.

Only because you're not utilizing them yourself. Also, please clear E3S, and E4S before talking about all of Savage. Progging Titan demanded me to use basically all my tanking tools to make things easier on both myself and the party. To say nothing of Ultimate.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Only because you're not utilizing them yourself. Also, please clear E3S, and E4S before talking about all of Savage. Progging Titan demanded me to use basically all my tanking tools to make things easier on both myself and the party. To say nothing of Ultimate.

But he's not wrong though, it's been pretty bland as far as raid tiers go, forced swaps, double buster/ autos, and boss glued to the edge of the arena for the best part of two fights, make it pretty dull as far as things go from tank perspective.

[SargentToughie]

But he's not wrong though, it's been pretty bland as far as raid tiers go, forced swaps, double buster/ autos, and boss glued to the edge of the arena for the best part of two fights, make it pretty dull as far as things go from tank perspective.

It's no different from the previous tiers, though. Let's just pick a random previous raid tier: Sigmascape.

Phantom Train: The OT exists for a cart halfway through the fight, and to bait a Meteor, boss is otherwise pasted to the side with no movement. Small add phase in the middle.
Art Class: Omnidirectional boss that drives himself. Only tank mechanics in this fight are the TBs, and the OT cheesing those stacks with their invuln
Guardian: Position the boss, grab the adds, silence Ultros, and do Virus
Kefka/God: A compelling fight with a lot of stuff going on, mostly a positioning and healing check, however. I'll admit, I only cleared this fight on DRG so I can't speak to tank stuff, but he mostly jumps around and drives himself. Base kefka needs to be pointed towards/away from the tower near the end, based on true/false though.

There's more room for tanks to be given interesting gameplay, absolutely. That, however, is not the discussion being had here. This entire discussion is centered around "tanking is easy now because enmity is gone: Also I'm mad about DRK". If people want tanking to feel 'important' or better, just going back to the old tank stances won't be enough, and would actually be an active detriment in my opinion.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

It's no different from the previous tiers, though. Let's just pick a random previous raid tier: Sigmascape.

Phantom Train: The OT exists for a cart halfway through the fight, and to bait a Meteor, boss is otherwise pasted to the side with no movement. Small add phase in the middle.
Art Class: Omnidirectional boss that drives himself. Only tank mechanics in this fight are the TBs, and the OT cheesing those stacks with their invuln
Guardian: Position the boss, grab the adds, silence Ultros, and do Virus
Kefka/God: A compelling fight with a lot of stuff going on, mostly a positioning and healing check, however. I'll admit, I only cleared this fight on DRG so I can't speak to tank stuff, but he mostly jumps around and drives himself. Base kefka needs to be pointed towards/away from the tower near the end, based on true/false though.

There's more room for tanks to be given interesting gameplay, absolutely. That, however, is not the discussion being had here. This entire discussion is centered around "tanking is easy now because enmity is gone: Also I'm mad about DRK". If people want tanking to feel 'important' or better, just going back to the old tank stances won't be enough, and would actually be an active detriment in my opinion.

Sure Phantom Train and Chardanock weren't terribly exciting from a tank perspective admittedly, and optimised strats, you could forgo OT for another DPS in Phantom Train.

Having positioning requirements and dealing with adds that carry their own set of mechanics in Guardian was exciting, but was a fail in regards job design at the time, namely paladins abhorrent ability to generate aggro without seriously butchering it's flow of the job in comparison to WAR or DRK.

Kefka was probably the most enjoyable fight as tank overall for me in Sigma, especially god kefka, mostly for the positioning aspect, which became crucial to carry out certain mechanics, and the flow of the fight, making use of veil and cover, overall just felt good in all honesty as a tank.

As for your final points, tbh, most tanks did one combo in tank stance and swapped to DPS stance for the rest of the fight, people will sensationalize or look through rose-tinted glasses, but aggro was a dead mechanic since 3.x. Removing aggro combos that were scarcely used, and removing the penalty on tanks doing their job is a good thing for the role.

I'm not surprised about the DRK crying, it's all I ever see, but personally I never enjoyed dark knight to begin with, too much cringe for my taste. Strictly my view on the matter, and each to their own, but I wholeheartedly agree on not turning this into, 'just another dark knight thread', instead of a tanking in general thread. More tanking mechanics specifically fight designs by large extension, and tools that would help us better or uniquely do things that haven't been done before to a smaller extent, not q.q over drk.