Tanking feels unimportant

[Quor]

- I don't have any comments on the DRK changes, since I don't play DRK. A few DRK players in my circle love the job right now, but most forum people seem upset. I'm sorry that DRK isn't satisfying to you this expansion.

My opinion on this is that a lot of people either don't think to or don't want to use TBN as it's intended. Which is to say, a DRK should be keeping one eye on the party list at all times, looking for opportunities to absorb incoming damage via a well-placed TBN. Given that's it's based off of the targets HP, chances are high it will break from any mechanic that goes to a healer or dps. Since it's a dps neutral skill for the DRK as long as it breaks, you stand to purely gain by using it as often as possible to absorb as much damage for others as possible. Any bit of healing that can be saved is another GCD that can be used on Glare or Malefic or Broil. From a pure combo-based perspective DRK is very simple, but the meta game for DRK is less about combos and has shifted to be more more about resource management via MP, Blood and cooldowns. A lot of people haven't adjusted for that yet.

[Bhearil]

My opinion on this is that a lot of people either don't think to or don't want to use TBN as it's intended. Which is to say, a DRK should be keeping one eye on the party list at all times, looking for opportunities to absorb incoming damage via a well-placed TBN. Given that's it's based off of the targets HP, chances are high it will break from any mechanic that goes to a healer or dps. Since it's a dps neutral skill for the DRK as long as it breaks, you stand to purely gain by using it as often as possible to absorb as much damage for others as possible. Any bit of healing that can be saved is another GCD that can be used on Glare or Malefic or Broil. From a pure combo-based perspective DRK is very simple, but the meta game for DRK is less about combos and has shifted to be more more about resource management via MP, Blood and cooldowns. A lot of people haven't adjusted for that yet.

The idea in theory is good, problem is that unless someone has derped hard no party mechanic hits so hard that TBN is needed or is just expected to aoe bomb heal after which will just make healers overheal the bubbled person anyways. Unless tankbusters while raiding as offtank either you dont need to use it almost at all, or only use it when someone has screwed it BADLY, but RDM have the very same issue with their chain res and we know how bad is to rely on people derping badly to be useful. Small mistakes do not need TBN, big mistakes outside training shouldnt be happening on the first place, thats why SMN having a instant res each 60 seconds is better than RDM that can chain insta res outside of meme trainings or crappy dungeon runs, because more than 1 dead person per minute spells disaster

You cant put the situation for example where a player is loaded with vul stacks that needs TBN to survive because those vul stacks shouldnt be there or at worst shouldbt be so high

[Quor]

The idea in theory is good, problem is that unless someone has derped hard no party mechanic hits so hard that TBN is needed or is just expected to aoe bomb heal after which will just make healers overheal the bubbled person anyways. Unless tankbusters while raiding as offtank either you dont need to use it almost at all, or only use it when someone has screwed it BADLY, but RDM have the very same issue with their chain res and we know how bad is to rely on people derping badly to be useful. Small mistakes do not need TBN, big mistakes outside training shouldnt be happening on the first place, thats why SMN having a instant res each 60 seconds is better than RDM that can chain insta res outside of meme trainings or crappy dungeon runs, because more than 1 dead person per minute spells disaster

You cant put the situation for example where a player is loaded with vul stacks that needs TBN to survive because those vul stacks shouldnt be there or at worst shouldbt be so high

I disagree. In savage Eden, at least half of your TBN's can be used on someone other than yourself in the party. Of those, at least half will directly result in some healing saved. I.e. if our DNC gets blue during first knockback on Maximum, I can TBN him and the damage he takes from blue that goes through the shield can easily be taken care of via Curing Waltz and Second Wind. Rampart+SW is more than enough for the tank stuff during this time, and both tanks will be healed a lot anyway, so best to throw it on the blue target and save time/healing that way. There are a lot of little optimizations like this one that I rarely see done, but when done they make life so much easier for everyone involved.

[Bhearil]

I disagree. In savage Eden, at least half of your TBN's can be used on someone other than yourself in the party. Of those, at least half will directly result in some healing saved. I.e. if our DNC gets blue during first knockback on Maximum, I can TBN him and the damage he takes from blue that goes through the shield can easily be taken care of via Curing Waltz and Second Wind. Rampart+SW is more than enough for the tank stuff during this time, and both tanks will be healed a lot anyway, so best to throw it on the blue target and save time/healing that way. There are a lot of little optimizations like this one that I rarely see done, but when done they make life so much easier for everyone involved.

And thats the issue, if its optional its not really needed asides of giving the impression of being useful , and a difference of someone needing a healing spell or half of it is irrelevant since they will get healed anyways and only adds to overheal. Only on very specific situations is useful and those cases need to preplanned since on that case the DNC is getting healed unless the healers know that the DNC is gonna use all his healing cds (perhaps the DNC had to use them beforehand for some reason so he need healing anyways)

[Quor]

And thats the issue, if its optional its not really needed asides of giving the impression of being useful , and a difference of someone needing a healing spell or half of it is irrelevant since they will get healed anyways and only adds to overheal. Only on very specific situations is useful and those cases need to preplanned since on that case the DNC is getting healed unless the healers know that the DNC is gonna use all his healing cds (perhaps the DNC had to use them beforehand for some reason so he need healing anyways)

This forum - "entire fights can be pre-planned all the way down to exact GCD and cooldown usage. To do otherwise is sub-optimal play and shouldn't factor into any consideration of job balance or discussion."
Also this forum - "lol maybe something happened before hand I dunno xD"

So, which is it? Answer - it doesn't matter. Both are strong arguments for TBN. Can the fight be planned down to exact cooldown/GCD usage? Then great, you know exactly what's coming and when so you can optimize TBN usage. Can't plan it because something might throw a monkeywrench into the works? Then it's a good thing a tank has a short-CD high-strength instant shield to throw on someone for emergencies. It's almost like what we learned in the level 70 quest - about watching over the weak and protecting them despite the cost to ourselves - is entirely the purpose behind TBN.

[Maeka]

It's almost like what we learned in the level 70 quest - about watching over the weak and protecting them despite the cost to ourselves - is entirely the purpose behind TBN.

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

[Quor]

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

Exactly how I feel. To be honest, if the min/maxers and "optimization uber alles" types left the game and never returned, I wouldn't be sad. The last thing this game needs is it's own version of Tigole and the Poopsockers.

[Yorumi]

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

This is such a gross misscharacterization of people that you're basically posting for no other purpose than pure insult. Insulting people like this in no way helps any discussion, nor does it in any way help your argument or make things better in the community. Just the opposite in fact, it shows an immaturity and ignorance that seeks to do little more than tear other people down to make yourself feel better. If you are so closed minded and unwilling to even properly understand what other people are saying, instead choosing to make up a false image just to insult, then you're not going to make a whole lot of friends or gain much respect.

Many people here have patiently tried to help you understand situations and explain things to you properly and respectfully. If all you care to do in response is greet them with disrespect, contempt, and insult then quite frankly stop posting. You have been shown far more respect on these forums than you deserve or have earned.

[BarretOblivion]

Not like your average min-maxer cares about lore and class identity, they just want to do max DPS without having to sacrifice anything for survivability. "Why should I do less damage just so I can help someone else not die? They should help themselves not die by not standing in junk".

Same kind of people who refuse to cast Clemency if someone else is about to die. Some might cast it on the healer early in a boss fight, maybe.

But nope, gotta top them deeps charts. Starting to think I'm colorblind and those aren't blue icons next to PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB, but rather red ones.

Because that's not my job to watch player's HP? That's healers jobs and role. Not only that I'm not gonna clemency if I am not in my requiscat window, it throws of your rotation considerably if you clemency early and don't have 100% MP when its time to requiscat.

Everyone has a role to do damage in Savage/Ultimate. EVERYONE because EVERYONE HAS TO DO X DAMAGE ELSE YOU WIPE.