Does WoW have a faster pace than FFXIV?

[Yamr3]

The rotation and amount of skills differences is huge and plays the main part of the ffxiv combat advantages. Its somthing that you cant ignore if in ffxiv you are pressing like 16 different buttons and in wow you do like 8.
Wow combat and class design in majority is hot garbage, if you do anything else than rushing through dungeon you could play it with one hand.
It is faster but its not surprising since GCD is sitting at 1 sec so all specs should have over 60 apm which is not the case and a ton of them is sitting way below that. In ffxiv despite gcd being 2.5 sec jobs do 31+ apm the least.

Good morning,

I am commenting here to show that it is quite far higher than that if you look at players who are above average. I've taken 2 logs to show the CPM. The first log below is form one of the top 100 guilds in the world. Please see below for the CPM from this top 100 guild. A third of the raiders CPM for first boss on Mythic The Eternal Palace are double the CPM, 2 almost triple, the actions per minute possible for FF14.




Now let's look at a more laid back guild. I will use mine for example. We're a hybrid guild and community of raiders. More so on the super casual side of raiding until we get to the half way point of Heroic difficulty of raids, as that's when things start to get real.




I post this to show that's it's not actually that far down on CPM. It's quite accurately double, and as shown here can be tripled, with the actions per minute. When you look at casual players and see the comparison it's not too vastly down either.

I picked the first boss because that's one you sit around and don't have to move too much. Kind of like how E2S is besides standing in a puddle every now and then or the tank / healer running to their A / C marker for flares.

[Cetonis]

A third of the raiders CPM for first boss on Mythic The Eternal Palace are double the CPM, 2 almost triple, the actions per minute possible for FF14.

Just a factual correction, FFXIV CPM tends to run from 30-50, with most jobs between 35-45. So there's definitely no triple, a couple near-doubles, and then a lot of just "more". So still faster as a CPM measure, just not by as insane of a degree as stated.

Digging a bit more fwiw, looking over some of these logs I'd say that ~90% of the players over 60 cpm are spamming 3-5 skills for the bulk (~80% or more) of those actions. The other 20% can involve a myriad of different skills though.

[Yamr3]

Just a factual correction, FFXIV CPM tends to run from 30-50, with most jobs between 35-45. So there's definitely no triple, a couple near-doubles, and then a lot of just "more". So still faster as a CPM measure, just not by as insane of a degree as stated.

Digging a bit more fwiw, looking over some of these logs I'd say that ~90% of the players over 60 cpm are spamming 3-5 skills for the bulk (~80% or more) of those actions. The other 20% can involve a myriad of different skills though.

Since a recurring subtopic is button presses, let's look into it a little more. I decided to match the Shadow Priest casts with one of the top DPS for E2S. They're a Bard, so it's range and range. To prevent naming and shaming I will not quote the player's name but you can verify yourselves by looking through FFlogs.

This image here shows the Shadow Priest from the first boss in Mythic The Eternal Palace


This image below shows one of the bard I'm using as an example from E2S.


Both of those are range classes and not really a unique rotation to say. Not a vast difference until we look at time. In the Priest's log, they used 263 actions in 3 minutes vs. the bard using 396 in 9 minutes on E2S. If we took the same pacing of 263 buttons every 3 minutes while tripling the same boss's HP, the Priest would've done 789 buttons in 9 minutes. Which would match the Bard's kill time on E2S.

Both fights relatively don't have players moving very much besides a mechanic here and there requiring you to stack on someone moving the AoE out or standing on your soak marker in E2S and dodging the combo in the last phase.

If we look at this, the Priest was doing 90.5 CPM and the Bard is doing 46.6. We could go into the nitty gritty of which classes are spam classes but I believe that is a different category of issues, balance and game design over time. Neither side are wrong to play, which we all can agree on; however, for the above average player, WoW is considerably faster in CPM to FF14's CPM, even if it's 2 extra buttons. Which, CPM aside and only looking at rotations, is a personal flavor difference for each player themselves.

[Cetonis]

(snip)

Whew, that's quite the cherry pick. It's strange to both (a) pick something decidedly on the far high end of the WoW cpm scale, and then (b) pick Bard, of all things, to represent FFXIV. Why not MCH? That would have been a far better choice for multiple reasons (no procs to argue complexity about, no weird apm vs. cpm debate, not a button-count outlier, etc).

I don't broadly disagree with the points that you seem to want to make, but there's no need to distort and exaggerate. Good-faith arguments will do just fine.

[linay]

I don't broadly disagree with the points that you seem to want to make

While I don't disagree either, I don't see the relevance of the point Yamr3 is making considering the post they originally responded to already stated the same point:

It is faster but its not surprising since GCD is sitting at 1 sec so all specs should have over 60 apm which is not the case and a ton of them is sitting way below that. In ffxiv despite gcd being 2.5 sec jobs do 31+ apm the least.

396 vs 789 buttons in 9 minutes certainly fits within the comparison ballpark considering the base GCD difference that Nedkel mentioned.

[Shurrikhan]

Digging a bit more fwiw, looking over some of these logs I'd say that ~90% of the players over 60 cpm are spamming 3-5 skills for the bulk (~80% or more) of those actions. The other 20% can involve a myriad of different skills though.

What should that matter if it's an optimal action and requires at least as much from the player as just hitting 1234567854 DRG combos in eternally repeating loops?


Aside:

As for whether the particular choice of comparisons are "cherry-picking"; they are, but in XIV's favor. A caster, with casts up of up to nearly twice the length of GCDs (or nearly 3 times the length of most melee specs' GCDs) is being compared to a proc-shot-heavy physical ranged. And it's still double the apm.

That's not to say that more APM is always better. It's not. But WoW does very clearly outpace XIV, for better or worse.

[Nedkel]

What should that matter if it's an optimal action and requires at least as much from the player as just hitting 1234567854 DRG combos in eternally repeating loops?


Aside:

As for whether the particular choice of comparisons are "cherry-picking"; they are, but in XIV's favor. A caster, with casts up of up to nearly twice the length of GCDs (or nearly 3 times the length of most melee specs' GCDs) is being compared to a proc-shot-heavy physical ranged. And it's still double the apm.

That's not to say that more APM is always better. It's not. But WoW does very clearly outpace XIV, for better or worse.

It makes a giant difference between having double the action speed but spamming few buttons, and having it slower but having to use 15+ non-situational skills and numerous mechanics and decisions to do in a rotation, with far more resources to manage.
I choose second over first at any time, mainly because wow few buttons rotation and lack of any meaningful mechanics or resources management and also because of WoW combat tied up to the GCD i consider ffxiv combat design far far superior to the WoW one. Of course you could have a hard time playing WoW but thats mainly due to the dungeons and raids design which are random and far less predictable than FFXIV in comparison.

Since a recurring subtopic is button presses, let's look into it a little more. I decided to match the Shadow Priest casts with one of the top DPS for E2S. They're a Bard, so it's range and range. To prevent naming and shaming I will not quote the player's name but you can verify yourselves by looking through FFlogs.

This image here shows the Shadow Priest from the first boss in Mythic The Eternal Palace


This image below shows one of the bard I'm using as an example from E2S.


Both of those are range classes and not really a unique rotation to say. Not a vast difference until we look at time. In the Priest's log, they used 263 actions in 3 minutes vs. the bard using 396 in 9 minutes on E2S. If we took the same pacing of 263 buttons every 3 minutes while tripling the same boss's HP, the Priest would've done 789 buttons in 9 minutes. Which would match the Bard's kill time on E2S.

Both fights relatively don't have players moving very much besides a mechanic here and there requiring you to stack on someone moving the AoE out or standing on your soak marker in E2S and dodging the combo in the last phase.

If we look at this, the Priest was doing 90.5 CPM and the Bard is doing 46.6. We could go into the nitty gritty of which classes are spam classes but I believe that is a different category of issues, balance and game design over time. Neither side are wrong to play, which we all can agree on; however, for the above average player, WoW is considerably faster in CPM to FF14's CPM, even if it's 2 extra buttons. Which, CPM aside and only looking at rotations, is a personal flavor difference for each player themselves.

And how does that compare to redmage like this
https://i.imgur.com/AlZOIKh.png

If you really want to make a fair comparison, compare classes that are similar to each other in the design purpose. I could guarantee you bard i far more engaging to play than arcane mage for instance.