PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[SaberMaxwell]

Or..... you could compromise and do middle-ground.

Yeah, 1 group pull is a bit boring, even in my opinion.
3 Group pulls, at least as SCH, is too stressful.

So.... what's between 1 and 3?

Right, 2.

EDIT: I will also note that yesterday I had a Shisui run, and the tank there did a 3 group pull and it was rather smooth. I'm thinking that maybe either ShB dungeons are tuned a bit high, esp Holminster, or maybe the fact that being Level Sync'd makes a rather big difference in how smooth things go. Which goes back to my initial complaint: If the healer isn't Sync'd, I think a 2 group pull to start with is probably better and see how much they struggle, or if they breeze through it like it's nothing, watch for things like whether or not you notice them casting DPS spells. If you do a 2 group pull and you see very little DPS out of the healer, chances are they are struggling and 3 group pull is not a good idea.

Compromise requires communication. It requires you to ask the tank to slow down. But no, you "shouldn't have to" ask I guess.

[Maeka]

Compromise requires communication. It requires you to ask the tank to slow down. But no, you "shouldn't have to" ask I guess.

Let me ask you this, politely.

Going max pull speedrunning is on one end of the spectrum.
Pulling only 1 group at a time is on the other end of the spectrum.
Compromise is somewhere in the middle.

When you show up to a dungeon with 3 random people who you don't know, you don't know how well they are geared unless you /inspect them (who has time to do that, in every dungeon?) or ask (most people don't wanna talk or say anything).

So what is the "Default", then, if nothing is said?

Should it be one of the extremes, or something in the middle?

Common sense, at least to me, says that the middle-ground should be the default. Pull 2 groups, a healer who is not comfortable should say "could we do 1 group?" ... a healer who is good at their job and well-geared will go "you can pull 3 if you want".

Is there a problem with that?

Just curious.

[SaberMaxwell]

That's just it. It's DF. The default, for better or worse, is going to be different depending on who gets pulled in.

Me personally? I pull to the wall. That's my default. If the healer asks me not to, I won't. If we're genuinely having so many problems surviving big pulls, I'll query the healer about how things are going on their end. But I'm not every tank, and every tank isn't me. The important thing is opening communication, because that's the basis for compromise. Not assuming and pretending everyone will (or even should) have the same default.

[WhyAmIHere]

(1/2)

---snip---

You. Are not. The victim.
Stop seeking sympathy.

You messed up. You want to blame others, but only yourself is to blame.
It's not the PLD's fault you were rusty on SCH. It's not the PLD's fault you used your skills inadequately.
You failed to communicate with your group. That's on you.

"Shouldn't have to go begging people to slow down. And if I did, then what? People get grumbly and disband then we sit around waiting for a replacement? Or they start talking down to me like people are doing in this thread?"

Yes. You actually SHOULD be speaking up. A closed mouth doesn't get fed. If you ask the PLD to slow down, either they do so, and you move on, or they complain and you leave the instance and move on. Jumping immediately to the worst case scenario instead of just trying to communicate is a failure on your end.

"I don't play games for edge-of-your-seat action.

I like to have fun and relax a little."

Your fun =/= everyone's fun.

Apparently compromising isn't something that should ever be done, ever. "You're not very good at 3 group pulls so you should just never heal duty finder ever again and while you're at it, you should quit healing entirely!"

You aren't looking for compromise. You're looking to be catered to. You want everyone you meet in duty finder to acquiesce to you. That's so blindly selfish that yes, maybe you do need to reevaluate whether or not you should just stick to trusts or not. At least in trusts you do 100% control the pace of the dungeon.

[WhyAmIHere]

(2/2)

Maeka is every bit in the right to expect people to do sub optimal things to smoothen the run in the same way others can expect of Maeka to play suboptimally (no DPS for instance or clipping / triple use of OGCD) if it means saving them.

. . .No?
No one should expect ANYTHING of anyone.

Let me ask you this, politely.

Going max pull speedrunning is on one end of the spectrum.
Pulling only 1 group at a time is on the other end of the spectrum.
Compromise is somewhere in the middle.

When you show up to a dungeon with 3 random people who you don't know, you don't know how well they are geared unless you /inspect them (who has time to do that, in every dungeon?) or ask (most people don't wanna talk or say anything).

So what is the "Default", then, if nothing is said?

Should it be one of the extremes, or something in the middle?

Common sense, at least to me, says that the middle-ground should be the default. Pull 2 groups, a healer who is not comfortable should say "could we do 1 group?" ... a healer who is good at their job and well-geared will go "you can pull 3 if you want".

Is there a problem with that?

Bold/Underlined is your problem. In your opinion. Everyone else has their own opinions. And unless you speak up at all you will not learn anything.

I'll ask your opinion on how I personally pull, just to prove a point.

I don't use sprint in dungeons. I'm lazy.
I pull wall to wall unless someone says something. I'm lazy.
Where in your spectrum would that fall? Is sprinting what makes that too extreme? Is pulling wall to wall what makes that too extreme? Is me assuming the healer i get matched with to be capable of keeping up too extreme?

. . .3k character limit sucks btw.

[Patcheresu]

Common sense, at least to me, says that the middle-ground should be the default. Pull 2 groups, a healer who is not comfortable should say "could we do 1 group?" ... a healer who is good at their job and well-geared will go "you can pull 3 if you want".

Is there a problem with that?

I don't quite agree with your common sense. I've had situations where the tank asked how big the pull should be or silently did a single pull. If a healer doesn't like how the tank is performing, they should warn them they cannot comfortably move at that pace. Communication is very important.

I do not understand why you believe that my, and the rest of people you group under "common sense", default assumption is to have so little faith in my allies that they cannot handle a big pull at Level 80 in a Level 79 dungeon. And, please do not call it "speedrunning". That is quite a misnomer, as the reason for doing this is a faster clear, not some attempt at a competitive record. Simply call it by a better name "big pulls".

I'm not sure why you believe the go to strat should be big pulling but only "not so" big pulling. The difference between a 2 pull and a 3 pull is whether your healer can stop casting Malefic to fight a fire the party failed to put out before it caught the tank's flesh ablaze. You're still using lots of cooldowns, aoes, and oGCD heals, they just wont be used as efficiently perhaps.

And on the forum topic, we do have Clemency for a reason. Are you familiar with the meaning of the word? It's pardoning of ones sins. Like a healer who failed to hold up to the party's needs. Or a DPS who keeps standing in bad stuff. Or a cotank who made a mistake and is badly hurt. Clemency is accident forgiveness your PLD must think about providing, as using it directly affects their ability to fight properly (Requiescat).

[RaidingIsHard]

[WhyAmIHere]

also /inspect is inefficient. target the person, right click on them or the * key on your number pad, then select examine. really fast way to see what gear a person has.

[BarretOblivion]

Lets kill this stupid topic already. Should a PLD use clemency or expected to use clemency in a dungeon?
Not normally.
Why? Faster killing of mobs means healers/dps use less cooldowns equalling a safer dungeon run overall.
If you think I can sit and spam clemency will help, you need to learn how PLD actually plays. We don't touch or MP till requiscat comes off cooldown and you only get the benfit of requiscat if you are at 80% MP so if I in the middle of my rotation have to clemency, I screw up my entire flow of my job and it gets clunky in a hurry as most PLDs will tell you. PLDs rotation is simple but strict when it comes to MP. Now if I am in requiscat? Sure, I might clemency once if I drop too low but only once because you are going to heal so much that if you have to heal again... something is wrong with your Healer, plain and simple at that point everyone should be looking at the healer, or the DPS if they are taking too long. Everyone looks to the tanks for some reason as always its always 'thier fault' for dying, I got news for you all, sometimes its the healers fault for not healing, sometimes its the DPS fault for taking too long. Tanks have basically an X amount of time we can live without party help until we die. Healers extend that time, its up to the DPS to kill in that time.

[Valic]

I like how you dislike RDM who don't try to do the healers job for them. It makes me chuckle pretty hard.

I like how you basically see verraise and vercure as not a skill to counter your point. Makes my /chuckle. Don't be so narrow minded, I simply reminded people dps jobs offer more than just no brain dps.

It's not really about the parse and more about not doing someone else's job. Actually using clemency in a meaningful way is extremely difficult. Considering the healer kit is more than sufficient to never require the use of clemency and the fact that a lot of healers don't heal the moment any damage is taken often times it's far to late once you realize the healer is struggling. Yes it's nice that pld and rdm have a heal but I think it's fair to say they shouldn't be expected to babysit health bars for the healer. A lot of healers don't overheal so somehow on top of doing their job a rdm or pld are also expect to read the mind of the healer and know whether or not they're struggling or just avoiding overhealing or have a huge heal off cooldown.

There's just so many variables at play that it just makes much more sense to say these classes aren't healers, it's nice they can do it in a pinch but they shouldn't be expected to read minds.

I agree with this. I'd say that's moreso my point. That they shouldn't be "expected" to do the thing, but hey.... it IS a thing the job does and can do... why not use it?