PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[Maeka]

Hmm, instead of editing the post for the millionth time, I'll make a new one to make another point:

The tank above who said that they pull 3 groups because "It's more fun!" is... kinda laughable. Unless the mobs have lots of AoEs (there's plenty pulls in plenty dungeons that don't), there's literally no difference between pulling 1 group, pulling 2 groups, or pulling 3 groups other than the time it takes to do the whole dungeon.

The only time this changes is when you have dungeons with mob groups that do frequent AoEs.

You do the exact same AoE rotations regardless of how many enemies there are, and you're still going to do much of the same defensive cooldown usage, other than perhaps popping Hallowed Ground.

So let's not kid ourselves into thinking that 3 group pulls are more "fun" and just admit it's all about speedrunning and being in such a hurry that an extra few minutes added onto a dungeon run is just something that you don't want.

Holminster is the odd one out this expansion. Of the leveling dungeons, outside Mt Gulg's megapulls, it's the most dangerous one. Nobody's got their new tools for the most part, and you might get paired with DPS who don't get significant expansions to their aoe through level 72 skills.

It should be noted that Stormblood leveling dungeons are indirectly nerfed with the baseline tanking changes, though Bardrams in particular feels like it got tuned down on 5.0 release.

I suppose there is that too.

I know that SCH gets a rather large healing buff at 74 which is after Holminster but I already discussed that earlier in the thread, yes.

Just seems like Holminster in particular was tuned a bit too high. I don't recall Sirensong or that Heavensward Dungeon (Iron Vigil? Stone Vigil? Something like that) being quite that hard (during their respective expansions while they were current content), other than that area with the DoT blizzards in the latter, and if you had a tank that didn't know how to exploit the deck of the ship and/or somebody stupid enough to attempt the entire zombie room in one pull in Sirensong with people who weren't Level Sync'd.

Maybe if I work up the notion to try again, maybe I will try Qitana Ravel as SCH when it gets to 75 and see if that is any smoother.

[Magnedeus]

"Let alone the fact that I do just finel, rather well even"

Gonna be blunt. If that's the case then this whole thread is meaningless and stupid and you've learned nothing. You spent literally 4 days complaining and arguing with everyone here only to say "I do just fine, rather well even."



And if you can't deal with with "BS like this" then play with trusts as i previously stated. Because it seems like you can't do dungeons with tank players without them pissing you off because they are not doing what you want them to.

[Barraind]

If Alphinaud can keep me up through 3 packs of mobs with his "i dont really even know what I'm doing but heres a heal i guess now im going to run in circles for a bit" approach to being a healer, the bar you're expected to slightly adjust your stride to step over is set almost imperceptabaly off the ground.

My favorite part is when you talk about a tank pulling things you literally cant pill at once because of how the instance works.

As an aside, sacred soil is pretty garbage until 78 due to how tank mitigation works. If they have a CD popped, soil is something like 4.8% damage reduction. Thats MUCH better as an extra lustrate or maintaining excog.

Also, if you think a 90 second cooldown guaranteed crit adlo (since it doesnt work on lustrate) is going to be a gamechanger in healing large pulls at 74, its most certainly not.

[Mavrias]

Oh, I see. Because you don't have fun with large pulls, the idea of them being entertaining to anyone is laughable. Not like there's a tangible difference in the mileage you get from your cooldowns, the damage your doing, etc. You don't seem like you tank a lot so you probably don't knos the difference between hitting 3 mobs with decimate spam and hitting 12 mobs with decimate spam.

Wild. You have a bad experience doing mass pulls, so the problem is everyone who likes to do big pulls and not your own inexperience with the job you're on. It can't be user error, SCH just can't do big pulls and Holminster is overtuned.

[Crushnight]

The best way to tell if a hlr is struggling and to start thinking of using Clemency is when a healer does this:

Whm - cure II, cure II ,cure II
Sch - adlo, adlo, adlo
Ast - benefic II, Benefic II, Benefic II

At this point they are out of cds and are starting to panic and struggle as they are using all their gcds to keep the tank alive, all three healer kits can handle all pulls so long as the party collectively are skilled enough to do the pull. If the pull is possible the likelihood of Clemency being needed drops drastically.

[Maeka]

As an aside, sacred soil is pretty garbage until 78 due to how tank mitigation works. If they have a CD popped, soil is something like 4.8% damage reduction. Thats MUCH better as an extra lustrate or maintaining excog.

Also, if you think a 90 second cooldown guaranteed crit adlo (since it doesnt work on lustrate) is going to be a gamechanger in healing large pulls at 74, its most certainly not.

Not like the game actually tells you this.

The tooltip says "those inside take 90% of incoming damage"

4.8% is not 10%, lol.

I expect tooltips to actually do what they say they do.

And if Sacred Soil is so darn useless, why do they give it to you so early in the game, if the Trait that makes it actually useful is not until Level Farking 78!?

Also, Critlos give a good 30% (if not more) of the tank's HP as a barrier. You don't think that a guaranteed 30% of their HP meter barrier is more useful than only getting it <10% of the time, and anytime it doesn't crit it's more like 10% of their HP makes a difference?

Also, Tactics+Critlo is more than half a tank's max health.

You spent literally 4 days complaining and arguing with everyone here only to say "I do just fine, rather well even."

Gotta love how people take things I say out of context, and/or omit relevant things I said that don't fit their skewed points they're trying to make.

1). I said "I do just fine ON BOSS FIGHTS, AND 2 GROUP PULLS AND 3 GROUP PULLS AS WHM AND AST". I like how you omitted that part to make it sound like I said "I do just fine all the time".
2). I never once said that I had no fault whatsoever in either of the wipes mentioned in this thread. That was never once said, nor implied, nor meant.

The entire thread is "If you're dying, and you know you're going to die, at least TRY to cast Clemency and see if that doesn't save the group from wiping".

This was never about "I'm in the right, they're in the wrong". I never said that, I never implied that, and I never meant that. Not once. Bringing up stuff like SCH being more difficult than the other two healers, Holminster being overtuned, etc is merely me defending myself from the plethora of personal attacks that are irrelevant to the main point of the thread.

This whole thread is about tanks who choose to drop dead when they COULD have saved themselves, but decided not to. Regardless of WHY it got that point in the first place, and in fact, I admitted that I am not all that comfortable with large pulls on SCH. I said that several times, even.

It seems like you're just trying to levy personal attacks at me, to belittle me and you're twisting my words to do so, and I will report if you keep doing it.

[Magnedeus]

Not like the game actually tells you this.

The tooltip says "those inside take 90% of incoming damage"

4.8% is not 10%, lol.

I expect tooltips to actually do what they say they do.

And if Sacred Soil is so darn useless, why do they give it to you so early in the game, if the Trait that makes it actually useful is not until Level Farking 78!?

Also, Critlos give a good 30% (if not more) of the tank's HP as a barrier. You don't think that a guaranteed 30% of their HP meter barrier is more useful than only getting it <10% of the time, and anytime it doesn't crit it's more like 10% of their HP makes a difference?

Also, Tactics+Critlo is more than half a tank's max health.



Gotta love how people take things I say out of context, and/or omit relevant things I said that don't fit their skewed points they're trying to make.

1). I said "I do just fine ON BOSS FIGHTS, AND 2 GROUP PULLS AND 3 GROUP PULLS AS WHM AND AST". I like how you omitted that part to make it sound like I said "I do just fine all the time".
2). I never once said that I had no fault whatsoever in either of the wipes mentioned in this thread. That was never once said, nor implied, nor meant.

The entire thread is "If you're dying, and you know you're going to die, at least TRY to cast Clemency and see if that doesn't save the group from wiping".

This was never about "I'm in the right, they're in the wrong". I never said that, I never implied that, and I never meant that. Not once. Bringing up stuff like SCH being more difficult than the other two healers, Holminster being overtuned, etc is merely me defending myself from the plethora of personal attacks that are irrelevant to the main point of the thread.

This whole thread is about tanks who choose to drop dead when they COULD have saved themselves, but decided not to. Regardless of WHY it got that point in the first place, and in fact, I admitted that I am not all that comfortable with large pulls on SCH. I said that several times, even.

It seems like you're just trying to levy personal attacks at me, to belittle me and you're twisting my words to do so, and I will report if you keep doing it.

Go ahead and do it then. i've already reported many of your posts days ago for valid reasons which i will not share here.

[Maeka]

Go ahead and do it then. i've already reported many of your posts days ago for valid reasons which i will not share here.

"For valid reasons".

Um... okay. Whatever, if you say so. Funny you chose not to say what those reasons actually are, or what rules I actually broke.

Apparently it's OK to omit things people said to misrepresent what they're saying, but it's not OK for me to express my opinion, and be a little annoyed at people throwing personal attacks at me over irrelevant/off topic points (which itself is against the rules). I only reported 1 person so far in this thread, who was overly rude with a blatant personal attack.

It's also rather funny that you won't even respond to the fact you twisted my words, and omitted parts of what I said to twist the actual meaning of what I said, in order to throw personal attacks at me.

[SaberMaxwell]

The "just make your own Party" argument, love seeing it as if it supposed to be the correct answer here. Speedrunners are supposed to group up and average / below-average players are supposed to be expected when entering DF, not the other way around.

Frankly, being a speedrunner myself, I am siding with Maeka in this case. In Duty Finder, everyone is equally responsible for survival, provided they have defensive or restorative tools in their kit. By default, this includes PLDs Clemency. If the healer is clearly being starved of resources during "optimal play", the next correct thing would be playing what is generally accepted as "suboptimal", as in using Clemency to reduce the healing burden. I believe I said it before, but I'll happily say it again:

"Survival > DPS. A dead person does no DPS."

The real problem is that noone knows when they should actually use Clemency because everyone tells them to not use it ever, meaning they never learn the situational awareness for it. And no, "if Healer is dead" is already a bit too late unless the Healer got one-shot. Personally, if I don't know the healer quite yet and don't know their responsiveness to my HP dropping, during my first Requiescat window I'll pop at least 1x Clemency to gauge if it ends up overhealing / unnecessary or not.

Maeka is every bit in the right to expect people to do sub optimal things to smoothen the run in the same way others can expect of Maeka to play suboptimally (no DPS for instance or clipping / triple use of OGCD) if it means saving them.

Nope. You don't expect *anything* with DF. Don't expect casual slow runs or speed runs, you take what you're given and you pre form if you want something specific.

[Maeka]

Nope. You don't expect *anything* with DF. Don't expect casual slow runs or speed runs, you take what you're given and you pre form if you want something specific.

....which is why I talk about evaluating what you have in your group. Not just the healers, but the DPS as well.

Pulling 2 groups at the start should give you a good idea if the healers AND the DPS know what they're doing, because the mob pack should die fast, healer should be throwing DPS spells, and if neither of those two things are happening, chances are, 3 group pulls are a very bad idea. If the mobs are dying too slow, the healer, regardless of how good they are, might run out of resources. If the healer is not throwing DPS, they are likely struggling with 2 group pulls or they don't feel comfortable with their job for whatever reason (being rusty, being new, just not meshing well with the playstyle).

This isn't about who is a "scrub" or who is "terrible" but rather making sure the entire group gets through the dungeon with as little death as possible.

I really don't understand why this is such a bad concept.