PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[Mavrias]

I admitted later in the thread that my memory of the events were foggy due to me not running Holminster Switch in awhile.

I got confused, thinking the Gremlin area was after the 2nd boss, when it is after the 1st boss.

I don't have the Shadowbringers dungeons memorized off the top of my head, and I had posted this thread a few hours after the events in question actually happened. I just remembered that the tank immediately mashed sprint and took off on the very first pull, there was a wipe, and then later on with the Gremlin area, she ran me out of resources and kept overpulling with me being out of resources.

As for using Sprint, I also said earlier in the thread, that I have nothing against tanks using sprint, but uh,

How about not using Sprint and pulling the first three groups before you even test your healer, or even confirm they're ready?

A big pull is a better test of your healer than a small pull. Did you accept the prompt to enter the dungeon? Yes. Did you say you need a second? No. So the obvious assumption is that you are indeed ready. Its a dungeon, not a savage fight. You shouldn't need a ready check and a countdown.

Additionally, after you wiped and you felt that you couldn't handle small pulls, did you actually communicate that you wanted to slow down to your tank?

[Maeka]

A big pull is a better test of your healer than a small pull. Did you accept the prompt to enter the dungeon? Yes. Did you say you need a second? No. So the obvious assumption is that you are indeed ready. Its a dungeon, not a savage fight. You shouldn't need a ready check and a countdown.

Additionally, after you wiped and you felt that you couldn't handle small pulls, did you actually communicate that you wanted to slow down to your tank?

Shouldn't have to, to be honest. She pulls a 3-group pull, and we wind up wiping because I hadn't played SCH in a bit (it's been a week or two), and she does 2 group pulls the rest of the dungeon until that gremlin area, which everybody should know by now those things hurt like hell and do a LOT of damage, and she decides do those two pulls literally back to back with no time in-between.

Really REALLY don't understand what the frick is everybody's hurry anymore that you gotta chain pull GOGOGOGOGOGOGO to the max. Slow down a little, yeesh.

Shouldn't have to go begging people to slow down. And if I did, then what? People get grumbly and disband then we sit around waiting for a replacement? Or they start talking down to me like people are doing in this thread? "You suck" because I don't like huge pulls that get me all flustered especially right from the beginning before I even warm up?

Sometimes it's nice to have a smaller pull or two at the beginning to get into the rhythm and get the muscle memory going. But mashing sprint and pulling the first 3 groups without even giving me time to say much of anything just puts me in a flustered mood and I start forgetting buttons, or sometimes hitting wrong buttons, and when you got a 3-group pull, you have literally zero room for error.

I don't play games for edge-of-your-seat action.

I like to have fun and relax a little. Sorry if that's a freaking crime in this GOGOGOGOGOGOGO mentality that a lot of players have these days.

[SaberMaxwell]

The solution then is to pre form your own group, not expect DF to conform to your standards especially when you won't communicate them.

"But so should they!"

Well that's the problem of pugging innit, it put you and Speed Racer in the same group and obviously you two didn't get along. Solution for either of you is to put up or preform. Looks like you both chose to put up with it.

[Mavrias]

Shouldn't have to, to be honest. She pulls a 3-group pull, and we wind up wiping because I hadn't played SCH in a bit (it's been a week or two), and she does 2 group pulls the rest of the dungeon until that gremlin area, which everybody should know by now those things hurt like hell and do a LOT of damage, and she decides do those two pulls literally back to back with no time in-between.

Really REALLY don't understand what the frick is everybody's hurry anymore that you gotta chain pull GOGOGOGOGOGOGO to the max. Slow down a little, yeesh.

Shouldn't have to go begging people to slow down. And if I did, then what? People get grumbly and disband then we sit around waiting for a replacement? Or they start talking down to me like people are doing in this thread? "You suck" because I don't like huge pulls that get me all flustered especially right from the beginning before I even warm up?

Sometimes it's nice to have a smaller pull or two at the beginning to get into the rhythm and get the muscle memory going. But mashing sprint and pulling the first 3 groups without even giving me time to say much of anything just puts me in a flustered mood and I start forgetting buttons, or sometimes hitting wrong buttons, and when you got a 3-group pull, you have literally zero room for error.

I don't play games for edge-of-your-seat action.

I like to have fun and relax a little. Sorry if that's a freaking crime in this GOGOGOGOGOGOGO mentality that a lot of players have these days.

I do big pulls because they're more entertaining than small pulls. Them being faster is just a nice bonus. I don't want to slow down. That's boring. But I will if my group asks me to. If they don't ask, then we're doing big pulls. You being unwilling to communicate is your fault, and hence your problem. You don't want to do big pulls? Say something or just drop from party.

You have fun your way, others have fun their way. You can find a compromise if you just open party chat and type.

Also lol "zero room for error" in a three pack pull. There's plenty of room for error, so long as you know what all your buttons do. No one is perfect but somehow plenty of people get through pulls like that (and larger) all the time.

[Maeka]

The solution then is to pre form your own group, not expect DF to conform to your standards especially when you won't communicate them.

"But so should they!"

Well that's the problem of pugging innit, it put you and Speed Racer in the same group and obviously you two didn't get along. Solution for either of you is to put up or preform. Looks like you both chose to put up with it.

Or..... you could compromise and do middle-ground.

Yeah, 1 group pull is a bit boring, even in my opinion.
3 Group pulls, at least as SCH, is too stressful.

So.... what's between 1 and 3?

Right, 2.

EDIT: I will also note that yesterday I had a Shisui run, and the tank there did a 3 group pull and it was rather smooth. I'm thinking that maybe either ShB dungeons are tuned a bit high, esp Holminster, or maybe the fact that being Level Sync'd makes a rather big difference in how smooth things go. Which goes back to my initial complaint: If the healer isn't Sync'd, I think a 2 group pull to start with is probably better and see how much they struggle, or if they breeze through it like it's nothing, watch for things like whether or not you notice them casting DPS spells. If you do a 2 group pull and you see very little DPS out of the healer, chances are they are struggling and 3 group pull is not a good idea.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

The solution then is to pre form your own group, not expect DF to conform to your standards especially when you won't communicate them.

"But so should they!"

Well that's the problem of pugging innit, it put you and Speed Racer in the same group and obviously you two didn't get along. Solution for either of you is to put up or preform. Looks like you both chose to put up with it.

The "just make your own Party" argument, love seeing it as if it supposed to be the correct answer here. Speedrunners are supposed to group up and average / below-average players are supposed to be expected when entering DF, not the other way around.

Frankly, being a speedrunner myself, I am siding with Maeka in this case. In Duty Finder, everyone is equally responsible for survival, provided they have defensive or restorative tools in their kit. By default, this includes PLDs Clemency. If the healer is clearly being starved of resources during "optimal play", the next correct thing would be playing what is generally accepted as "suboptimal", as in using Clemency to reduce the healing burden. I believe I said it before, but I'll happily say it again:

"Survival > DPS. A dead person does no DPS."

The real problem is that noone knows when they should actually use Clemency because everyone tells them to not use it ever, meaning they never learn the situational awareness for it. And no, "if Healer is dead" is already a bit too late unless the Healer got one-shot. Personally, if I don't know the healer quite yet and don't know their responsiveness to my HP dropping, during my first Requiescat window I'll pop at least 1x Clemency to gauge if it ends up overhealing / unnecessary or not.

Maeka is every bit in the right to expect people to do sub optimal things to smoothen the run in the same way others can expect of Maeka to play suboptimally (no DPS for instance or clipping / triple use of OGCD) if it means saving them.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Or..... you could compromise and do middle-ground.

Yeah, 1 group pull is a bit boring, even in my opinion.
3 Group pulls, at least as SCH, is too stressful.

So.... what's between 1 and 3?

Right, 2.

Admittedly, for Holminster that is a good compromise since the Bear + Wolves could end up nasty if the Healer is mediocre. The Scorpions might end up being much for worse Healers.

[Magnedeus]

You know op you might find this insensitive and rude, but i think it needs to be said. I honestly think you're not cut out for healing at this point in time. For 4 days straight you have had tanks here (mostly paladin mains i assume) tell you how Clemency should be used and when it should be used. And all you have been doing is shrugging them off and making invalid points. If you don't like tanks pulling a lot then play with trusts, you can pull 1 or 2 at time with them and not have to worry about wipes.

[Maeka]

You know op you might find this insensitive and rude, but i think it needs to be said. I honestly think you're not cut out for healing at this point in time. For 4 days straight you have had tanks here (mostly paladin mains i assume) tell you how Clemency should be used and when it should be used. And all you have been doing is shrugging them off and making invalid points. If you don't like tanks pulling a lot then play with trusts, you can pull 1 or 2 at time with them and not have to worry about wipes.

.....except there are several people in the thread who disagree that the points I've made are "invalid".

Just a few people who insist on wall to wall pulls 100% of the time, always, regardless of level/gear/etc, who insist every healer must be able to play at the very best, even in leveling dungeons, even while still learning the class.

It's just... um... ok. Whatever.

Apparently compromising isn't something that should ever be done, ever. "You're not very good at 3 group pulls so you should just never heal duty finder ever again and while you're at it, you should quit healing entirely!"

Let alone the fact that I do just fine, rather well even, on boss fights, and that I can do 3 group pulls easily as WHM, and comfortably as AST, and I just find SCH to be a bit too stressful, but only during 3 group pulls. "Oh, but we can't do 2 group pulls, because other people can do it fine!"

Is such a ridiculous and stupid argument to make. Honestly.

Ever wonder why the Adventurer In Need is almost always Healer for Leveling Roulette? To compare, I see Tank on Trials Roulette rather often (because it's boring as crap, when you got a 50/50 chance of being a gimp DPS on most fights).

This here is a big reason as to why. Most people don't have the patience to put up with BS like this.

EDIT: Also want to mention that some people are misrepresenting what I am saying. It seems like a couple of the biggest naysayers in this thread are trying to make out like I am saying that PLDs should be constantly casting Clemency on every pull. I never said that, and I never meant to imply that. I merely said that if you're hanging at 30%, or 25% or what-not for several seconds, that maybe you should consider casting it and don't just let yourself drop dead, and that a tank should have a decent situational awareness and look at more than their DPS buttons, and/or not burst out of the gate running full tilt the very moment "Duty Commenced" appears on the screen to actually see what the healer is wearing, what level they are, etc other considerations to take into account. If those points are "invalid" then... sheesh. I really don't know what to say. They seem like common sense to me. *shrug*

[Kabooa]

EDIT: I will also note that yesterday I had a Shisui run, and the tank there did a 3 group pull and it was rather smooth. I'm thinking that maybe either ShB dungeons are tuned a bit high, esp Holminster, or maybe the fact that being Level Sync'd makes a rather big difference in how smooth things go. Which goes back to my initial complaint: If the healer isn't Sync'd, I think a 2 group pull to start with is probably better and see how much they struggle, or if they breeze through it like it's nothing, watch for things like whether or not you notice them casting DPS spells. If you do a 2 group pull and you see very little DPS out of the healer, chances are they are struggling and 3 group pull is not a good idea.

Holminster is the odd one out this expansion. Of the leveling dungeons, outside Mt Gulg's megapulls, it's the most dangerous one. Nobody's got their new tools for the most part, and you might get paired with DPS who don't get significant expansions to their aoe through level 72 skills.

It should be noted that Stormblood leveling dungeons are indirectly nerfed with the baseline tanking changes, though Bardrams in particular feels like it got tuned down on 5.0 release.