Crossover events and breaking immersion

[Valic]

Given how closely that ties to the star creature of XIV's launch cinematic and who takes reference from the very area ARR all begins (Carteneu Flats or however it's spelled)... that hardly makes Omega Weapon as distant from XIV's world and story as, say, the NieR crossover.

And that's not even because it's NieR or because it's got the bosses and aesthetics and characters it does, it's just because it has nearly zero explanation or fit for having ended up in the XIV world. Had we just discovered the city it out in the Light Waste in a temporal pocket caused by some antipolar reaction whatchamahavit to Cid and the CE's breaking time where it briefly shows the distant future of the First Shard after the fall of humanity, or whatever else it might take to actually make its place in XIV's story compelling, there'd be no issue.

But there wasn't. We just meet some brats, go down a mine, blow up some doors, and discover a city down there because... why? and how?... Who knows.

You're kinda jumping the gun a lil too though, we literally don't have the full story. In fact, what we have so far is literally "we dunno anything that's going on but we need to find out". I don't find it that hard to believe on a separate world of existence beyond our own plane that we find ancient mechanical constructs and designs hidden beneath the planet in some fashion. Heck, if we can act like the crystal tower is just there in Mor Dhona for a while until you do the raid and realize there's actually an entire society and so on in there... Who says there can't be a locked away chamber on the First that's been dormant for centuries and is awakening because- TO BE CONTINUED.

lol yeah I think I missed the edits and stuff.. but yes we're on the same page

Saw that last post, and I agree entirely. People forget FF as a series has involved both fantasy and sci-fi in a shared environment.

[Shurrikhan]

You're kinda jumping the gun a lil too though, we literally don't have the full story. In fact, what we have so far is literally "we dunno anything that's going on but we need to find out".

What you add to something should -- or more often, needs -- to play to the rules of the thing it's being added to, though. If the game you're adding the content to consistently provides some level of foreshadowing, connectedness, or whatever other form of lead-up to its events, then it's sensible that what you add to the game from elsewhere ought to do the same.

There will of course be some shock and awe figures that are only explained later, like Midgardsormr, some room for twists and the like. But simply throwing players into another franchise inconsistent with all that's come before it, sharing no references, patterns, or themes, is not setup for a twist. It's just a lack of effort that ignores the game surrounding it. That's not subversion; it's neglect.

I love NieR. I like that there's a crossover for it, even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline, rather than merely borrowing the poster children of another franchise in place of coming up with something of our own. But the shallow means by which it's been attached to the game isn't even worth defending, imo. Fun enough raid, but an incredibly poor effort to connect it to XIV.

[Valic]

There will of course be some shock and awe figures that are only explained later, like Midgardsormr, some room for twists and the like. But simply throwing players into another franchise inconsistent with all that's come before it, sharing no references, patterns, or themes, is not setup for a twist. It's just a lack of effort that ignores the game surrounding it. That's not subversion; it's neglect.

I love NieR. I like that there's a crossover for it, even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline, rather than merely borrowing the poster children of another franchise in place of coming up with something of our own. But the shallow means by which it's been attached to the game isn't even worth defending, imo. Fun enough raid, but an incredibly poor effort to connect it to XIV.

Wrong, that's the point of a crossover. When the hell did FFXIV decide Neir was apart of its universe prior to ShB? Oh right, it didn't, because its a crossover lol. That's like saying the monster hunter event was bad because random palico posts a hunt poster on the board and shows up suddenly. Wrong, the whole point of a crossover is that they've never been apart of the world before until then. Again I also repeat, you're judging too quickly, and you're also basing this off of everything coming before Neir into FFXIV, rather than just playing FFXIV and taking it for what it is in FFXIV's universe. Wait and find out instead of declaring it lazy off the bat, personally I'm interested in seeing how they connected the worlds and even if they don't explain it well enough... Again it's not exactly out of place to see this sorta thing here in final FANTASY. If we wanna talk worst crossover....



How is this not the epitome of "wtf is this doing in FFXIV?"

Since you brought up not playing Nier.

NieR Gestalt/Replicant in terms of aesthetics would fit entirely within the realm of XIV. Earth had it's own Calamity as it were, and the villages you visit could be added as in game zones, and no one would so much as blink outside of the a special zone which, well, we actually got a similar treatment with Shadowbringers.

Automata is the same universe, same continuation of story. It just so happens to be set thousands of years in the future. If anything, aesthetically, it's only the YoRHa stuff that clashes for modernism, even in its own game. Forest Kingdom, Amusement Park, Desert Ruins, all things that really wouldn't be that different from things we have already seen on Novrant actually. Amusement Park leaning more on Crystarium architecture choices.



Let's not forget the three Drama CDs, manga, five novellas and orchestra concert only dialog readings.

I've watched gameplay and I gotta say, I agree fully. The environments are gorgeous in that game and even give me FF vibes, one most are familiar with is that area with the glowing white flowers when you go into the cave... I don't actually know the spot's name or place but I'm sure any Nier fan knows what I'm referring to.

[Alleo]

Wrong, that's the point of a crossover. When the hell did FFXIV decide Neir was apart of its universe prior to ShB? Oh right, it didn't, because its a crossover lol. That's like saying the monster hunter event was bad because random palico posts a hunt poster on the board and shows up suddenly. Wrong, the whole point of a crossover is that they've never been apart of the world before until then.

And the difference between something like Yokai and Nier is, that one is a limited event and the other is a fixed part of the story. (And monster hunter got us mostly just one monster that could have come from the new world and other than that there is not much to it) That is for some of us a bit too much. FF14 is already a pool of references and fanservice, for some of us it would have been nice if at least the main stuff was mostly free of this. But now they have gone beyond that. And who knows what could possibly even come in the future with this.

Would you be fine with such a raid if it was something you did not like?

Again if they had just brought over Nier as some normal limited crossover I would have been fine.

[Valic]

Would you be fine with such a raid if it was something you did not like?

There ain't much I don't like tbh... I guess I just like the game and its ideas?

Midargardsomr is not NieR, and is the only thing I mentioned as part of XIV's story, so... where is that strawman coming from?. "Even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline" does not state that he already created any part of XIV story. The only connection I spitballed, no where near the post you replied to even, was the Light Waste, which likewise did not exist prior to ShB.


...Of all the examples, you choose that one? A dragon (established species) in the Azim Steppe (an established location) presented through a hunt board (an established means) to present a fight in a near-copy of the first boss area (an established fight) and includes aldegoat charges (an established mechanic), as an example of how a crossover does not benefit from connecting itself to the game through the whatever the game already have? They clearly thought differently, even if only to save costs at the time.

Tbh, I think I gave up on this thread a while back. The people who dont like what we got are gonna stay stubborn to it. I enjoyed both the Neir raid and the MHW crossover... They fit fine, they're told well enough, and they're fun. Personally, I don't need much more than that... But I'm also a believer that life is too short to get upset over how a scantily dressed android woman can be apart of a series where we have silly talking fish and dimensional crossover left and right.

I guess all I'm saying here is... Go ahead and dislike it? It's only doing yourself in to choose to see it in a bad light. I don't see them changing anything about it and I find a lot of people enjoy the crossover thus far... I personally love that they're implementing these ideas and taking advantage of them, because I have never seen content manage to successfully pull off these sorta things in an mmo. If I ever am skeptical of anything they put in, I usually get over it when I realize how much effort was put into it all. Yokai watch included, not a fan of it at all... but eh.... could be worse things and it's semi-enjoyable, and its not even canon so /shrug.

[Iscah]

...and its not even canon so /shrug.

Whether or not it's canon is yet to be seen.

It's a crossover with another franchise, which so far have not been canon outside of their isolated, usually-temporary quests.

But it's also an alliance raid, which so far have been canon to and provided additional information about the wider FFXIV setting (Allag, the Crystal Tower, Mhach, Goug as the predecessors of the Garlean race, more details about how auracite works) as a permanent and integrated part of the wider story. They are part of "the canon version" of what our character has achieved, when referenced by static sources outside of the game such as the lorebook and side stories.

So, is NieR automatically "not canon" because it's a crossover, or is it canon because it's an alliance raid? We don't know yet... and some of us are wary of that.

[linay]

So, is NieR automatically "not canon" because it's a crossover, or is it canon because it's an alliance raid? We don't know yet... and some of us are wary of that.

Nier is not canon, but Yorha is. Just like FFT/FF12 is not canon, but Ivalice is, or FF3 is not canon, but Crystal Tower is, etc.

[Valic]

Whether or not it's canon is yet to be seen.

It's a crossover with another franchise, which so far have not been canon outside of their isolated, usually-temporary quests.

But it's also an alliance raid, which so far have been canon to and provided additional information about the wider FFXIV setting (Allag, the Crystal Tower, Mhach, Goug as the predecessors of the Garlean race, more details about how auracite works) as a permanent and integrated part of the wider story. They are part of "the canon version" of what our character has achieved, when referenced by static sources outside of the game such as the lorebook and side stories.

So, is NieR automatically "not canon" because it's a crossover, or is it canon because it's an alliance raid? We don't know yet... and some of us are wary of that.

You misunderstand me. Yokai isn't canon. Neir though is as far as I'm aware from what they said.

[Shurrikhan]

Not sure what you mean. I explicitly stated that I am not judging the nier story integration until the 3rd raid is out.

And I'm saying that makes no sense to use as a basis for whether something is objectively (or as near to that as possible) lacking in some aspect or not. People do judge parts 1 and 2 of a trilogy, and not just after the trilogy is complete. All the more so if that trilogy is added to a franchise that has no habit of great twists or open-ended openings.

I just pointed out that there is precedent on both sides for multiple dimensions and hopping between them, so the crossover doesn't contradict either worlds rules.

But there's a difference between a foreshadowed (albeit dimension-hopping) weapon crash landing somewhere and hiding a city in a hill some tenth its size. Consider it even just a matter of scale (just as one is left to wonder how all those warrior Xaela tribes can be so close to each other) or thematic lead-in (as ShB reiterates and compounds between ambiguity to conviction, but only vaguely touches over to what we see in NieR, simply because none of those connections were made obvious despite that it'd have cost nothing to make them so, only a bit more time and intelligent writing). They're simple areas which can be done well, or any degree of less well. There's no compromise to the Yoko Taro special style/ingredient/what-have-you.

Wrong, that's the point of a crossover. When the hell did FFXIV decide Neir was apart of its universe prior to ShB? Oh right, it didn't, because its a crossover lol.

Midargardsomr is not NieR, and is the only thing I mentioned as part of XIV's story, so... where is that strawman coming from?. "Even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline" does not state that he already created any part of XIV story. The only connection I spitballed, no where near the post you replied to even, was the Light Waste, which likewise did not exist prior to ShB.

That's like saying the monster hunter event was bad because random palico posts a hunt poster on the board and shows up suddenly. Wrong, the whole point of a crossover is that they've never been apart of the world before until then.

...Of all the examples, you choose that one? A dragon (established species) in the Azim Steppe (an established location) presented through a hunt board (an established means) to present a fight in a near-copy of the first boss area (an established fight) and includes aldegoat charges (an established mechanic), as an example of how a crossover does not benefit from connecting itself to the game through the whatever the game already have? They clearly thought differently, even if only to save costs at the time.

[Lersayil]

And I'm saying that makes no sense to use as a basis for whether something is objectively (or as near to that as possible) lacking in some aspect or not. People do judge parts 1 and 2 of a trilogy, and not just after the trilogy is complete. All the more so if that trilogy is added to a franchise that has no habit of great twists or open-ended openings.

So your issue is that... its a different type of story telling that in your subjective opinion doesn't fit the game, because its not episodic enough? I disagree, but I won't argue with that, since its a valid oppinion to have. I don't mind at all if we only get answers in our third raid, since I view it as a single story given out in parts, not singular episodes of a trilogy.

But there's a difference between a foreshadowed (albeit dimension-hopping) weapon crash landing somewhere and hiding a city in a hill some tenth its size. Consider it even just a matter of scale (just as one is left to wonder how all those warrior Xaela tribes can be so close to each other) or thematic lead-in (as ShB reiterates and compounds between ambiguity to conviction, but only vaguely touches over to what we see in NieR, simply because none of those connections were made obvious despite that it'd have cost nothing to make them so, only a bit more time and intelligent writing). They're simple areas which can be done well, or any degree of less well. There's no compromise to the Yoko Taro special style/ingredient/what-have-you.

Sorry, but you are kind of rambling so I don't quite understand your point. All previous alliance raids were very self contained stories, with barely any foreshadowing, and (as far as I remember) only one validated in MSQ later.

We currently have no explanation or timetable about the Nier raid, when and how the factory came to be on the First, or how its connected to the Nier world. But both worlds have a history of weird dimension traveling shenanigans, so unless we get absolutely no explanation later, its fine for now.

Also, I was personally thinking of Gilgamesh, not Omega, since it wasnt confirmed (as far as I know) that he's the same Omega as its past iterations.