How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Reynhart]

Yeah, I'd rather we have the choice between mitigation (healing spared) and damage, just as healers do, and for more of our mitigation (again, effectively the same as healing) be skill-based, rather than the majority of it being passive.

When the tank stance debate was a focus point, I thought that the effect of the tank stance should be much more powerful. Something like 50% mitigation/+100% Max HP_healing received, but with "naked" damage received higher. This way, you would indeed "stance dance" instead of simply dropping your stance for the whole fights, or, you'd basically remove almost all DPS opportunities for your healers.

And for tanks that would do an optimal stance dance, relative damage output should be higher than it is now, because it would require good knowledge and decision making. And it would allow "turtle tanks" and "healers who're afraid of DPSing" to be paired with "healers who DPS as much as possible" and "agressive tanks" respectively, if the amount of damage one role loses is the same as what the other role gains.

Or, the other solution is to have GCD-triggering mitigation skills, so that tanks would have the same dilemma as healers. For example, since PLD has historically been "the fighter that heals", I'd find it appropriate that the majority of its survivability comes from Clemency instead of oGCD mitigation...which is basically how it worked in FFXI, now that I think of it. Or, instead of the tank mastery, PLD would have Seltron as a GCD (still blocking all attacks for 6s), meaning that to achieve permanent damage reduction, you'd have to sacrifice half your GCDs.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm personnaly on the side to reduce the healer's healing output, so that, like the dev claimed, they'd have to spend more time actually healing. Or, if they don't want to "nerf" anything because people will rage, just make sure that the next bosses deals significantly more damage.

I like the idea of harder hitting bosses, then also giving tanks even better tools to deal with that significant damage increase. I'd rather have damage that feels real and a powerful toolkit that's rewarding to use well, than have bosses that hit like wet noodles and little baby heals that you just spam over and over to accumulate half a health bars worth.

[Shurrikhan]

I like the idea of harder hitting bosses, then also giving tanks even better tools to deal with that significant damage increase. I'd rather have damage that feels real and a powerful toolkit that's rewarding to use well, than have bosses that hit like wet noodles and little baby heals that you just spam over and over to accumulate half a health bars worth.

Tbf, we don't even need harder hitting bosses so much as just less ridiculous (46%+ at level 80, assuming loss to multiplicative stacking for every step; much higher otherwise) passive mitigation so that survival is more firmly in the players' hands instead of the mitigation toolkit outside of Savage TBs amounting to additional effective healing alone.

Heck, we don't even need to increase the risk of death to make proper mitigation necessary if only someone at 1% HP (eviserated, spine broken, an arm missing, face torn off, and both femurs fractured) didn't fight exactly as well as someone in perfect health... The difference from mitigation then would only be effective healing and occasionally increased survival, but also effective damage and future mitigation.

[Lyth]

Forcing more active mitigation through more challenging damage patterns is interesting. Forcing more passive mitigation where you press a button to stay turtled up is not. You don't want to go back to the old stance system. You might think you do, but you don't.

Also, the "tank stance debate" was two people arguing for the sake of arguing on why we can't 'maximise our mitigation' or why we can't redesign this game into a new game in which we 'maximise our mitigation'. There was never any real debate on how this game gets played in practice.

[Reynhart]

Forcing more passive mitigation where you press a button to stay turtled up is not. You don't want to go back to the old stance system. You might think you do, but you don't.

Forcing passive mitigation during some heavy damage phases while allowing room to deactivate it during other phases is still more intereting than what we have now or even what we had before. And having the choice of what damage to trade (tank's or healer's) for more survivability would cover different types of players.

Also, the "tank stance debate" was two people arguing for the sake of arguing on why we can't 'maximise our mitigation' or why we can't redesign this game into a new game in which we 'maximise our mitigation'. There was never any real debate on how this game gets played in practice.

Sure, not in practice, but tweaking some numbers would have been enough to open the two paths without one completely crushing the other when it comes to optimization. We wouldn't have needed a heavy redesign.

[Nedkel]

Can someone show me any tank in any duty that could do 9k dps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz9sJJCHmQU

I know its an extreme case, but it clearly shows the healers dps potential and not only they do more personal dps but it also scales better with buffs.

[Deceptus]

Can someone show me any tank in any duty that could do 9k dps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz9sJJCHmQU

I know its an extreme case, but it clearly shows the healers dps potential and not only they do more personal dps but it also scales better with buffs.

As a DRK I can easily do that on trash

[Risvertasashi]

Can someone show me any tank in any duty that could do 9k dps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz9sJJCHmQU

I know its an extreme case, but it clearly shows the healers dps potential and not only they do more personal dps but it also scales better with buffs.

Gunbreakers can do 9k+ in eden savage.

I think looking at 'max DPS' is misleading and that looking at percentiles is better, because 'max DPS' can be one guy's weird one off. But since you asked...

[Nedkel]

Gunbreakers can do 9k+ in eden savage.

I think looking at 'max DPS' is misleading and that looking at percentiles is better, because 'max DPS' can be one guy's weird one off. But since you asked...

The highest GNB i found is 98% and does 8.4k with buffs and 7.9k without them.

Funny enough, that GNB used 19 skills in his DPS rotation, and that WHM used only 5 for DPS.
What is even funnier is.
WHM had 27.2 CPM using 18 skills total while GNB had 36.2 CPM using 33 skills total.
But thats not all, majority of CPM executed by WHM is one single skill (56%), where GNB had 9-5% distribution on majority of his buttons, meaning healer that did 9k dps spammed ONE SINGLE BUTTON for majority of time and still surpassed GNB with his finger breaking combos.

And yet there are still people who dont understand why we have this thread in the first place, go figure that out.

[Risvertasashi]

The highest GNB i found is 98% and does 8.4k with buffs and 7.9k without them.

Well that would be why he's only 98%, yeah?