Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

[MrThinker]

8

Slightly true, pickup groups still happened even when they were relevant on even patch cycles. PF was much more primitive then and was locked to server population only.

Towards the release of heavensward, they unlocked T10 -> T13 in DF as well. All were in DF just before HW landed. They usually made it there during the odd patch cycle, 2.1, 2.3, 2.58 iirc?

The only fights you could not DF back then were T6 -> T9 SAVAGE, which required you to que up with a full pre-made.

This 'putting them in the Duty Finder in the next patch' thing sounds a lot like the loot unlock they would do for the current savage raids, which just reiterates the point how they were the 'savage' equivalent of their time. In my opinion, at least.

[Havenchild]

This 'putting them in the Duty Finder in the next patch' thing sounds a lot like the loot unlock they would do for the current savage raids, which just reiterates the point how they were the 'savage' equivalent of their time. In my opinion, at least.

They WERE the savage equivalent of their time but with the massive nerfs that were done across the board (least HP nerfs) they were not bad anymore.

The fact that they were in DF even at the following patch cycle, means that the argument of "putting in in DF Roulette " means "it won't be clearable" is kinda moot. While some will STILL try and justify that because it was considered "SAVAGE" level back then that makes it more in line with EX /current savages but that's just not entirely true. If Blue Mages locked to level 50 with piss poor skills can clear the fights even with some knowledge, when you actually look at the fights with proper battle classes, factor in echo, factor in overgearing and HP/damage nerfs, these fights hardly measure up against the current Savage tier raids and people still don't get that. One particular point to understand, is that there was no previous content at the time to compare Coil to in terms of difficulty.

However through years of content, we do have content to compare it too. The fact that mechanics have also been reused in MANY different story mode fights means we now have referring context for literally any mechanic in coil. That means the community can easily identify what to do from something they've run prior. I am astonished at how many people are missing this. Doing PURELY MSQ/Normal/Hard mode instances, exposes you to almost all but 1 or 2 mechanics in the whole series.

There are literally 1 or 2 mechanics in the last bosses of T5, T9 and T13 that are guarentee party wipes or at least a member death.

T5 -> Twister (literally dodged by moving away from where you were standing) not a definitive party wipe.

T9 -> Meteor proximity, Golem eating either another Golem or 4 meteors. Two tanks grab two seperate adds, ranged grabs the last one, pull towards meteors and kill. Party wipe.

T13-> Twister tethers away from party, seperate add from Bahamut.

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community. The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

If DF can handle M/F and Eden normal, it can absolutely handle coil.

And beyond that, fire and ice tethers, dive bombs, the shard in the middle.

You were able to stand in for most fires, as the ice dragon, goes through the whole party before the next one, sans maybe a body or two (depends on server ticks), with average dps back then, the boss died before divebombs usually.

[HyoMinPark]

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community.

Let me correct you on this: the forum community thinks that these fights are too much for DUTY FINDER ROULETTES. Not that they’re particularly hard. And, frankly, defining them as too hard for DF is fairly reasonable, given how much people have complained on here in the past about normal mode trials and 24-mans being too hard to do: people on here spent weeks during HW claiming that Weeping City was too hard. That Final Steps of Faith was too hard (story mode, not EX). That Dun Scaith was too hard. That Rabanastre was too hard (Hashmal, specifically). That Construct 7 in Ridorana was too hard. That Castrum Fluminis was too hard. That the Will of the Moon and Requiem for Heroes MSQ solo instances were too hard. That Orbonne Monastery was too hard (again: only 24-man raid to receive automatic +10% Echo).

I never thought the Coils were overly complicated when I did them in HW, and I don’t think they’re hard now. But I also recognize that my definitions of “hard” and “easy” vary substantially from other people’s definitions. I raid Savage. I do Ultimate fights. Of course, I don’t think Coil is hard. But most players in DF don’t raid Savage or do Ultimate, so their definitions are likely going to be different from mine. Based on what the forum does classify as “hard content”, I’m sure Coil would fall in the same boat.

The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

I still disagree with this. I don’t think very highly of the average skill level of DF. Not when you still get DPS that refuse to AOE, healers that refuse to DPS, tanks that refuse to pop cooldowns for busters, and people that die to the same mechanic three times in a row.

[Havenchild]

snip

The fact that you disagree, is interesting. All of the fights you mentioned have higher clear rates on DF then disbands, sans maybe at the time Orbonne Monastery, the most difficult mechanically 24 man ever introduced and that only got echo, no mechanic or HP nerfs.
In fact most content in story mode, recieves echo. Coil recieved mechanic nerfs, hp nerfs AND echo.

O12S is in duty finder, que up for that and come back here after you get in and let us know how it goes.

Coil was ONLY EVER equivalent to today's standards of savage content prenerf. How people (including you), post all these nerfs, still consider these fights overtly difficult is asinine. They are nowhere near as punishing by today's standards of savage.

Steps of Faith, literally had one major mechanic that required 3 people to execute simultaneously and people were complaining and failing to beat it. Why? The HP on the boss was soo high, it required proper execution of the missle at LEAST two times but preferably all three with low DPS. This was EASILY RECTIFIED with an explanation by even one person of the mechanic. But no one seems to be able to properly explain so the boss wasn't dying in time due to failed 2nd and third missles.

How did they nerf it? They didnt nerf the mechanics at all. They added echo and reduced boss HP, same nerfs that were done to most of coils in one form or another and it increased clear rates dramatically by making the dps checks nowhere near as tight. Again, most of this is exactly how current coil feels. You would need to actually try to do no damage to see every single mechanic/combo in the fights.

[HyoMinPark]

The fact that you disagree, is interesting. All of the fights you mentioned have higher clear rates on DF then disbands, sans maybe at the time Orbonne Monastery, the most difficult mechanically 24 man ever introduced and that only got echo, no mechanic or HP nerfs.

I disagree that Coil would be nice and easy in Duty Finder because I know how bad Duty Finder can be with simple fights, not because I personally find the content hard (though, I do love how you keep insisting I think it’s hard). I’m not disillusioned enough to think that players wouldn’t struggle with the harder floors. And when I have runs like my Copied Factory last night, where there was a total of over 130 raises across all 3 alliances with only 7 new people, I feel like my opinion is relatively justified. My first clear of Copied didn’t have half that number of raises with everyone being new. I raised a BLM in my alliance 15 times. No, they were not new to the raid.

There would be no reason to put them in there when people would just do to them what they do to Alliance raids that aren’t LotA or ST: leave and take the 30-minute penalty because the penalty is shorter than attempting to clear with random players who don’t want to pay attention. I’m not one to leave content, and I actually have quite a bit of patience with people; but I likely wouldn’t waste my time trying to teach T9 to people who refused to listen to me. It’s frustrating enough when you get EXs in Mentor Roulette and people won’t listen.

Unless SE decide to nerf all of Coil to the point where Alte Roite Savage is harder, I cannot see DF roulette randos staying after one wipe (people still leave after one wipe in Chrysalis).

That would certainly have to be quite the nerf. Because Alte Roite doesn’t even qualify as Savage content.

[Nestama]

Alot of these mentions are not one shots or even two shots anymore. Post nerfs and overgearing, you can consistently "fail" these mechanics mentioned and NOT outright wipe.

It takes a literal effort to fail MULTIPLE mechanics in a row to wipe. Even DF is capable to execute one or two mechanics consistent enough. Anyone saying otherwise is outright lying to themselves.

And which ones are those? Melusine gains a damage up buff every time she's yelled at (Cursed Voice not being aimed out of the arena/Renauds and Shriek not being blocked. Also Melusine looking at Petrifaction cast by Prosector), so I can foresee her one shotting people with Flame Circle (or nearly killing them and making healers panic) or the tank with her tank buster (that doesn't have a cast). T8's Ballistic Missile still needs to be handled correctly as far as I know and if no one handles the confused tank correctly (or the OT doesn't tank swap), then the boss is gonna turn and cleave the group with Bleed. Allagan Field is going to wipe groups if no one protects them.

If people still wipe to Chrysalis in roulette, then wipes are guaranteed in a roulette involving Coil. People will quit these faster than they do Orbonne... or Shinryu when it was 3.0.

[Havenchild]

And which ones are those? Melusine gains a damage up buff every time she's yelled at (Cursed Voice not being aimed out of the arena/Renauds and Shriek not being blocked. Also Melusine looking at Petrifaction cast by Prosector), so I can foresee her one shotting people with Flame Circle (or nearly killing them and making healers panic) or the tank with her tank buster (that doesn't have a cast). T8's Ballistic Missile still needs to be handled correctly as far as I know and if no one handles the confused tank correctly (or the OT doesn't tank swap), then the boss is gonna turn and cleave the group with Bleed. Allagan Field is going to wipe groups if no one protects them.

If people still wipe to Chrysalis in roulette, then wipes are guaranteed in a roulette involving Coil. People will quit these faster than they do Orbonne... or Shinryu when it was 3.0.

Before actually assuming these mechanics are that deadly, understand that these weren't outright wipe offenses pre 3.0. It is either a collective effort of failed mechanics, or failure of a single specific mechanic (of the few that can even wipe a party) that is. Hop into these instances right now and you will down these fights ignoring almost every mechanic you mentioned. The fights progress too fast for it to be any outright life threatening thing. Hell, you can kill the boss before Allagan Field goes off depending on DPS.

[Noitems]

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community. The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

If DF can handle M/F and Eden normal, it can absolutely handle coil.

Look in turn by even suggesting we get all of Coil in raid rou, you're forcing ones like T9 to be a part of it. Giving people something like T1-4 is only giving them a snippet of the story and in turn brings more posts on here asking "Why aren't the rest of Coils in here!?!?" which then we need to have this whole conversation again about them. If you yourself have to argue that T9 is too tough for duty finder then do not be in support of Coils. You either get them all or get none. That's like if Alexander had only A1-A4 and nothing else in normal raid rou just because.

I want to state as well these rous are meant to be your daily login things, something you do each day just for the sake of it. It's not meant to be a taxing deal, it's just meant to be done at a casual pace. Even in these rous like normal raid people still abandon on O11N, O12N, and E4N. The amount of times I've been put into O12N as a party in progress was insane, because people can't actually handle the split tanking. If you're telling me these knuckleheads are the ones you may be stuck in for Coil and we have to votekick them out or leave and eat our penalty to escape is a load of bull.

If they had a specific coils rou, for the purpose of just running just that I can see that being a thing, HOWEVER the interest in that rou would be very minimal and I'm sure the majority would rather opt in for unsynced story runs instead after trying some of the fights synced. Hell a rou should be given instead to like Rival Wings instead. Something that requires more people, and is absolutely dead enough that a discord community has to bring up the slack for SE and them not making an actual rou for the damn mode for daily bonuses.

I know your heart is in the right place, I really do. But for something as casual as normal raid rou is meant to be we do not need the Coil baggage. We are not doubting the player base being able to clear this content, we are more so doubting the DF base to not clearing the content in an efficient manner as based on previous experiences between 8/24 man content and the current DF trends of like leaving after a single wipe.

I'm sure by some miracle a bunch of randos in DF would clear a fight like T9 after enough effort, however for a payout as small as normal raid rou gives and the amount of time/frustration put into just getting that win doesn't make any sense, especially when the looming thought you could do it all over again tomorrow with a new set of people sticks in your head.

[Havenchild]

snip

I understand completely what you are saying, and largely agree with your mindset. My argument stands that these fights with echo, hp/mechanics nerfs and gear overleveling have trivialized almost every single mechanic in coil including things like DPS checks. The fact is majority of the people in protest here, have not hopped into coil recently and only understand the difficulty from memory. These fights are pathetically easy now. Sure there exist still one or two mechanics that are literal party wipes but considering all the other things have been reduced to "just heal through", I do not believe it is a valid argument to say the community will fail consistently to execute one or two mechanics in only T5, T9 and T13 especially after they are explained.

We have normal/story based content that contains add/transition phases with multiple mechanics sometimes and if you don't execute you wipe. People get through this content no issue all the time. I still invite everyone to go back into Coil now in 5.0 DF /PF and give an honest assessment on how much more tough these fights are compared to some of the current content in Roulettes across the board. They are on par NOW with some of the things that came after and their mechanics have been reused in several different content, from Alliance Raids, to dungeon bosses to story mode raid content.

People will easily be able to identify how to handle the mechanics now cause they have references. It's the same way people reuse the term "Divebombs", a T5 originating term, to describe any line sweeping AoEs and most people who did Coils immediately know what that was.

Cool lets also add Gordias savage as well since it qualifies all those conditions too, love to see how random df groups handle Nisi, Royal Pentacle, Digititus and hand of pain sync'd XD

Besides the fact this contributes nothing to the conversation, Coil doesn't actually compare in the same vein of difficulty as Gordian Savage by FAR. You can actually bullet through mechanics in Coil because the player damage is that high versus boss HP unlike Gordias. So this comment is a waste but cute.

[Crushnight]

Besides the fact this contributes nothing to the conversation, Coil doesn't actually compare in the same vein of difficulty as Gordian Savage by FAR. You can actually bullet through mechanics in Coil because the player damage is that high versus boss HP unlike Gordias. So this comment is a waste but cute.

A1S brute force
A2S brute force
A3S do mechanics
A4S ignore Nisi and brute force

This is how we handle these turns hell A1S was brute forced by most everybody for light farming back in HW.

A1S-A3S all received mechanical nerfs, hp nerf and plenty of echo.
A4S hp and echo

The only mechanic that doesn't reappear is Nisi/Royal pentacle everything else has appeared in dungeons/trials/nm raids

Exactly like coil which your advocating for, yet you know the playerbase will not be able to handle these being in a roulette yet coil which has some fights that are more demanding than A1S and A2S sync'd should be, i think that speaks volumes about how well such things will go don't you? and i also think that it now has contributed properly to the discussion with this context no?