FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

[Oxdarock]

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To answer you points:

1) I will not deny that the Balance makes optimal openers, however with the people I talked to (I guess it's pretty much known that it was the mentors at this point), the concept of holding raid buffs seemed alien to nearly everyone. This leads me to believe that all the openers were made under the rule of using all buffs and bursts as early as possible and that the concept of holding raid buffs and allowing each class to get more of their bigger hits in the most buffs for a longer period of time wasn't really explored.

I'll repeat it again: I do very much encourage the use of early raid buff openers in fights where doing so will gain you an extra cast or prevent you from losing one. Case in point, for E3S, I believe the GNB opener starts its Gnashing combo on the 3rd GCD, much earlier than the usual openers, simply because doing so ensures that a Gnashing combo isn't lost due to Maelstrom. This fact alone makes it stronger overall in E3S (and in a vacuum). However, while it's possible for GNB to do this and follows the rule of "using burst phases as soon as possible", you usually wouldn't in other fights because the bulk of Gnashing misses a lot of raid buffs and using it 3 GCDs earlier probably won't gain you an extra usage of a Gnashing combo overall. This is the best example of my point where "if you can get the same number of casts off whether they're used early or not, then what's wrong with lining them up in a way that every class can make the most use of them?" I even gave a list on page 5 of this thread detailing the GCDs and oGCDs this alignment aims to fit in around 15secs.

2) Again, you say it's never optimal, but you don't really give a clear reason why. As for the example you give, the classes using the 2 minute raid buffs can only hold it for so long, otherwise they'll miss out on a duration of their buffs, which is what happens to all the other classes (now including NIN) regardless of how early their buffs are used in the opener. Even for DRG, which has the earliest raid buff usages in early raid openers, because you still lose out on a duration of their buffs by the end, you have to ask if that's really considered an extra cast. Also, while this might be fine for a speed run, in which you'd reset whenever someone dies, in a regular run where clearing is the goal, as soon as someone dies, that estimated kill time goes right out the window, making the possibility of retaining casts despite delaying raid buffs even higher.

Also, aside from DRG, most of the openers I list delay raid buffs and burst phases no more than 3 GCDs, so how likely are you to lose a cast in a full uptime fight like E2S?

[ZyrinMisharuji]

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To reply to your points in order:

1) I don't think anyone truly believes you talked to mentors from Balance to make this doc. If you discussed it with them you could credit them for having given you insight into all of the jobs in the game for you to then use that information to create this document.

To the next point. We aren't using buffs "early" we're using them when it's optimal and where we get the most burst out of them without holding them forever, for example, you're expecting WARs to use 8th GCD IR which is just awful, especially if they don't have NIN/MNK in their group (and if they have MNK your openers would still put Brotherhood out at the 5th GCD meaning IR now misaligns for Brotherhood which is the only buff that perfectly aligns with IR, and IR is 1110 potency more than 2 Inner Chaos uses, and that's without factoring in Onslaught and Upheaval and the autos you get under it). To your point of GNB using Gnashing earlier, that kind of doesn't matter. I don't say it as like "Tank optimization doesn't matter" I mean that the things tanks do to optimize their damage doesn't affect the raid because they aren't putting out raid buffs. So PLD dropping an Atonement after their req window to ensure they go into Maelstrom with a stronger combo doesn't affect the raid at all, it's a personal optimization to mitigate lost uptime.

2) I'm actually going to do a counter question. What actual benefit does delaying the openers give? Currently going through every opener I can for the jobs I have a role for in Balance, every job using the openers in Balance hit their most important/highest damaging skills under raid buffs. Battle Lit, used on 3rd GCD, covers all of DRG's highest potency moves while also ensuring the raid gets everything they want under those windows. A lot of what I see on your list would make jobs lose potency under your suggested buffs and I'm inclined to believe that my thought is correct considering how many people have come and explained and shown proof of how they lose potency under your suggested alignment (even more so when the people telling you that your suggested alignment is a DPS loss are people that I know are mentors on Balance).

[Oxdarock]

To reply to your points in order:

1) I don't think anyone truly believes you talked to mentors from Balance to make this doc. If you discussed it with them you could credit them for having given you insight into all of the jobs in the game for you to then use that information to create this document.

To the next point. We aren't using buffs "early" we're using them when it's optimal and where we get the most burst out of them without holding them forever, for example, you're expecting WARs to use 8th GCD IR which is just awful, especially if they don't have NIN/MNK in their group (and if they have MNK your openers would still put Brotherhood out at the 5th GCD meaning IR now misaligns for Brotherhood which is the only buff that perfectly aligns with IR, and IR is 1110 potency more than 2 Inner Chaos uses, and that's without factoring in Onslaught and Upheaval and the autos you get under it). To your point of GNB using Gnashing earlier, that kind of doesn't matter. I don't say it as like "Tank optimization doesn't matter" I mean that the things tanks do to optimize their damage doesn't affect the raid because they aren't putting out raid buffs. So PLD dropping an Atonement after their req window to ensure they go into Maelstrom with a stronger combo doesn't affect the raid at all, it's a personal optimization to mitigate lost uptime.

2) I'm actually going to do a counter question. What actual benefit does delaying the openers give? Currently going through every opener I can for the jobs I have a role for in Balance, every job using the openers in Balance hit their most important/highest damaging skills under raid buffs. Battle Lit, used on 3rd GCD, covers all of DRG's highest potency moves while also ensuring the raid gets everything they want under those windows. A lot of what I see on your list would make jobs lose potency under your suggested buffs and I'm inclined to believe that my thought is correct considering how many people have come and explained and shown proof of how they lose potency under your suggested alignment (even more so when the people telling you that your suggested alignment is a DPS loss are people that I know are mentors on Balance).

To reply to your points in order:

1) I did talk to mentors, but several didn't want me name dropping them and being associated with this list's creation, so I kept it ambiguous and just mentioned my appreciation that they took the time to talk to me, and for the guides and simulators they made.

2) Let’s talk about your example of WAR and MNK (and NIN). For starters, I'm surprised you said that both MNK openers were bad, even though one is the exact same Anatman opener as before and the PB opener the Balance has up has BH come out 1 GCD later, so you're really admitting that even those openers have holes. Now, keep in mind that when you calculate the timestamp for weaponskills vs spells, the attack goes out quicker for the former than the latter. As a basic example using a cast/recast of 2.5 seconds, when calculating when the attacks go out for weaponskills vs spells, the former will hit at 0 and 2.5secs while the latter will hit at 2.5 and 5secs.

Now, let's look at the theoretical timestamp for WARs GCDs, and to disprove your comment about me implying that groups should always be BiS gear for the openers I’ve proposed to work (which I'll talk about later), we'll use a GCD of 2.42 secs (I'll make mention of the oGCDs, but won't give timestamps for them). The way people currently use the WAR opener, the theoretical time stamp looks like this:

Toma (0secs) -> Infuriate -> HS (2.42secs) -> Maim (4.84secs) -> SE (7.26secs) -> IC (9.68secs) -> Infuriate -> IC (12.1secs) -> IR -> FC (14.52secs) -> Upheaveal -> FC (16.94secs) -> Onslaught -> FC (19.36secs) -> FC (21.78secs) -> FC - (24.2secs) -> HS (26.62secs) -> Maim (29.04secs) -> SE (31.46secs)

So an 8sec TA is actually pretty good with this opener, since it'll catch 2 ICs and 4 FCs under IRl. However, it's not so good for MNK. Let's look at MNK's GCD rotation using an Anatman opener that doesn't clip and cost you a full GCD (keep in mind that the first ST has about a 1 sec animation lock and it takes about half a sec or so for BH to be applied). For this, I'm going to use my own GCD of 2.44 (no GL), 2.32 (GL1), and 2.2 (GL2. I’m not suggesting that other people use the same gear as I do though, as substat calculation is behind what I can accurately calculate with simple math). I’ll also be stopping at the first Boot, since the point I’m trying to make is when BH comes out (an also when GL3’s GCD is applied). So, here’s how it looks:

ST (0secs) -> Demo (1sec) -> Anatman (3.42secs) -> DK (5.74secs) -> Twin (8.06secs) -> RoF -> Demo (10.14) -> FC -> BH (This is done so that BH extends to the second Demo) -> Boot (13-ish secs give or take due to BH clip)

So BH takes between about 13 secs to come out if Anatman doesn’t cause you to lose a GCD and about 15 secs if it does, so it still works for the raid alignment I’ve presented more or less. As you can see, it’s only either hitting the FCs in IR and HS or four FCs, a HS, and a Maim.

Now let's looks at what the GCD line-up looks like for a 10th GCD IR opener:

Toma (0secs) -> Infuriate -> HS (2.42secs) -> Maim (4.84secs) -> SE (7.26secs) -> HS (9.68secs) -> Maim (12.1secs) -> SP (14.52secs) -> IC (16.94secs) -> Infuriate -> IC (19.36secs) -> IR ->FC (21.78secs) -> Upheaval -> FC - (24.2secs) -> Onslaught -> FC (26.62secs) -> FC (29.04secs) -> FC (31.46secs)

So if BH comes out at around 13secs, it’ll catch SP, both ICs, and 3 FCs in IR and if it comes out around 15secs, it’ll catch both ICs and 4 FCs. So even in the worse case scenario, BH still catches stronger GCDs in a 10th GCD IR window than an 7th (or 6th) GCD window.

Now, let’s see what the damage looks like when you account for raid buffs. We’ll compare a 7th GCD IR with TA around 8secs and BH around 13secs to a 10th GCD IR window with both TA and BH coming out around 15secs. We’ll use a crit multiplier of 50% (1.5) and use a direct crit multiplier of 75%. Keep in mind the way multipliers are calculated: SE + TA = 1.15, SE + BH = 1.16, and SE + TA + BH = 1.21.

7th GCD IR (TA: 8secs, BH: 13ish secs)
Toma (140) + HS (200) + Maim (300) + SE (380) + IC (1849.2) + IC (1949.2) + FC (1250.8) + FC (1250.8) + FC (1250.8) + FC (1250.8) + FC + (1197.7) + HS (232) -> Maim (330) + SE (418) = 11899.3 potency

10th GCD IR (TA: 15secs, BH: 15ish secs)

Toma (140) + HS (200) + Maim (300) + SE (380) + HS (220) + Maim (330) + SP (418) + FC (1950.4) + FC (1950.4) + FC (1250.8) + FC + (1250.8) + FC (1250.8) -> FC (1250.8) + FC (1250.8) + FC (1138.7 = 12030.7 potency

Now again, if using 7th (or 6th) GCD IR gains you an extra use/keeps you from losing a use of IR overall, then go with that. However, if it doesn’t, then when you compare the openers plus raid buffs, using a 10th GCD IR puts you ahead by about 131.4 based on the GCDs alone.

Since this reply is already crazy long, I’ll address the point about DRG in another reply.

[ZyrinMisharuji]

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First of all, at no point in my post did I say the MNK opener was bad. I said your WAR opener is bad, especially when they have a MNK/NIN in their comp.

Now, to address your misunderstandings about the buff alignment - With the current WAR optimal opener (with comfy levels of SkS which they recommend which puts WAR at 2.38 recast, not 2.42, they hit their 1st IC at ~9.52 seconds into a pull. This puts it under the effects of TA. It's 2nd IC comes out at ~11.9 and they begin their IR window at ~14.28 and finish that window at ~24.28. With TA going out ~8 seconds this means it ends at ~23 seconds. Brotherhood out at 13 seconds means it ends at ~27 seconds. So, taking this into account WAR with the optimal Balance opener hits both ICs under TA along with all except its final FC under IR under Trick (might be able to be fit depending on how late into the GCD Trick is, latency, etc but I digress) and fits Heavy Swing under BH.

Now to show some math.
{Note: I am not looking at any potency before the buff window because this is a thread about buff alignment and if it's worth to hold}

Balance - 920(2) x 1.1(SE) x 1.05(TA) = 2125.2 + (590x5 + 450 + 100)1.1 x 1.05 x 1.05(BH) = 6369.83 + 200(HS) x 1.1 x 1.05(BH) = 6600.83

Yours - 920(2) x 1.1 x 1.05 x 1.05 = 2231.46 + (590x5 + 450 + 100)1.1 x 1.05 x 1.05 = 6476.09
{I went with a perfect scenario for both where both get all 5 cleaves under buffs just to kinda show the best they could be within these conditions. Also for yours since you showed TA and BH as 15ish seconds, that's the timing I went with. Even if BH comes out closer to 13 it becomes even more of a DPS loss for you as you would guarantee a loss of FC under BH and FC at 590 potency is way more worth inside the window than SP at 380 potency.)

Your suggested opener loses people 124 - 191 potency under just BH and TA. This is because in your opener, assuming TA and BH go out at 15 seconds as you say, you don't have any GCDs buffed after IR ends. This means that the Balance way gives you 1 extra GCD under BH than your method which pushes it 100 potency ahead even though your method is ahead by ~106 within the buff window by the time IR hits. Both methods get the same potency within the IR window, so your method is still ~106 ahead. The end of the window occurs and you have nothing else buffed by BH, but Balance method has HS buffed by BH which gains it ~231 potency. This puts it ~125 potency ahead of your method.

Again, I do not care about the GCDs before or after the buff windows end as they are not affected by the buff windows. I sincerely hope this proves to you that your method is flawed and results in DPS loses for everyone involved. On top of that, it pushes the buff windows further back which gets perpetuated whenever downtime occurs and you're forced to hold buffs until afterwards which pushes them further back and risks losing uses. Once again: Delaying windows is an end-of-fight optimization, not a beginning-of-fight optimization. Also to the point of everyone needing to be BiS - Your method does require everyone to be in augmented tome and raid gear. If people try to prog using these suggestions they will 100% lose uses of buffs throughout the fight and for their reclears until they are BiS and even when they're BiS they risk losing uses because some people may just have a really top tier day where they don't mess up their rotation a single time or they get super lucky and direct crit everything in their opener and jump 5k DPS higher than their norm, etc, etc. The earlier you use buffs, the less likely you are to lose uses in a fight and also it affords you wiggle room to optimize buff alignment towards the end of a fight when you want to kill the boss under buff windows to pad DPS numbers a bit.