FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

[HyoMinPark]

So I have to ask. I actually do encourage the use of openers where raid buffs and the like come out earlier if it gains you an extra cast overall. But if you still get the same number of casts across the board regardless of buffs coming out early or late, what's the problem then? It's common knowledge that not every class's strongest moves fit in the raid alignment of early raid buff openers and I've already proven that it is possible to line up raid buffs relatively uniformly here, so what's the issue then?

The issue is that you’re presenting information that is incorrect and suboptimal, and are presenting it as an “option” for optimal play, which it is not. You are also throwing around the name of The Balance and saying that you’ve spoken with theorycrafters about these openers in your document almost as a ways to legitimize what you have done, when the theorycrafters and job guide makers have already expressed that they do not condone this information, and have told you that they are incorrect and suboptimal. Not to mention, there are some roles/jobs that you consulted nobody about, and instead went with feeling as opposed to math. It’s disingenuous at best, and blatantly misleading to those who read it without additional knowledge of optimization.

If a player seeking to optimize or get into advanced play were to find your documents, and use your openers under the impression that they are viable or optimal, now you’re culpable for misleading players seeking to improve their gameplay. You lead them into forming bad habits, which they will then have to correct should someone point out “Hey, you’re doing this way wrong; that’s not how you optimal open on [job].” This could lead to frustration on both their part and the theorycrafters’/mentors’ part.

There is also no need to rearrange the current buff alignment for this new “uniformity”. Do you think the current theorycrafters did not pool their research and numbers to find the most optimal way to align raid buffs while also not costing jobs personal damage output? They’ve already figured the optimal way to do things—why change it or challenge it with something that is not optimal? What’s the issue with following what’s already established? Not everything needs to be changed/overhauled.

[Oxdarock]

snip

I'm just giving credit where it's due. I did talk to mentors and they helped me understand the peculiarities of each job, which led me to this alignment instead of the one from three months ago. They made guides and simulators which I looked over to get an understanding of each classes rotation to a certain extent. That said, they did not have a direct hand in making this list or endorsing it, and I stated as such in the disclaimer (which, not surprisingly, most people gloss over).

I just curious as to why people believe these are terribly subpar, especially in a situation that gives you the same number of casts whether you use raid buffs as soon as possible or delay them a bit. Here's what each class is using in this alignment, at 15 secs:

NIN: It's whole TA window, which contains most of it's strongest GCDs (1 Hyosho Ranryu, 2 Raitons, 1 Fuma-Raiton-Suiton TCJ, and ShadowFang) and almost all it's oGCDs (2 hits of Bunshin, DwD, Assassinate, and one Bhava (possibly two depending on how late TA is used).
DRG: Everything from a LS Full Thrust to the second Chaos Thrust. (It still retains the use of all the oGCDs even in the early raid buff opener).
MNK:
-Anatman Opener: If Anatman opener is delayed by 1 GCD (unfortunately), then everything from the 1 Boot to the second Demo falls under raid buffs.
-TK opener: The 15 sec raid buffs should hit everything from the first Boot to the last True, with Litany and Voice possibly reaching TK RoF is used around the same time as those buffs.
SAM: It fits Midare, Tsubame (basically the second Midare), Higanbana, Senei, and Shoha within 15 sec raid buffs whether they come out at 10 or 15secs.
DNC: The second Standard Step, Saber Dance procs, and a majority of Flourish moves all fit within raid buffs (though the more SDs you get, the more procs get pushed out, though since the only way to exceed SD's damage is to use FF/BS+FD1+FD3, the latter two being proc based, I don't see the problem with this so long as you don't lose a Flourish proc).
BRD: Pushes back the refresh of IJ, so more dot ticks from the first two Dots (can't say anything on the WM timings since that's proc based).
MCH: Fits hypercharge window, Drill, and HCS, as well as 6 (possibly seven) casts of both GR and Ricochet.
BLM: Fits 2 F4s, 2 Despairs, and 1 Thundercloud with Litany and Voice possibly reaching Xeno.
SMN: Fits all for R4s, 2 Festers, 2 Enkindle Baha, and 6 WWs (possibly the DeathFlare, but not sure on that one).
RDM: The entire melee combo, CaC, Displace, VerFlare, Scorch, Verfire, VerAero, Fleche, and possibly Jolt 2 (possibly Verstone if it procs). 8th GCD Embolden also provides a bigger boost to the melee combo, VerFlare, and Scorch, all of which are also buffed by Manafication.
PLD:
-FoF opener: Fits in 2 Atones, 2 Intervenes, a Goring combo, CoS, Requiescat, and 1 HS.
-Req opener: Fits Confeti, a gore combo, an extra FB and RB, 2 intervenes, and CoS.
WAR: Fits 2 ICs and 5 FCs under IR, as well as Onslaught and Upheave.
DRK: Fits nearly all of the LS's attacks, 5 Bloodspillers, 4 EoS without MP overcapping, AD, Salted, and Plunge (if you double weave it at least.)
GNB: Their entire Gnashing combo, as well as Sonic Break, at least 2 Burst strikes, 2 plunges, and an extra BZ.
WHM: The use of PoM allows for 3 Glares, plus a Dia, which is refreshed later while still managing to catch raid buffs.
AST: Isn't as frantic to play 3 cards before Div, doesn't waste a GCD of Lightspeed, and delays the refresh of Combust while still catching raid buffs.
SCH: Fits 4 Energy drains and refreshes Bio later with both casts catching the Pot window.

Admittedly, there are probably discrepancies in the timings, but this is the general goal. So again, if the number of casts is the same regardless of using buffs early or not, what makes the goal of a delayed alignment so subpar?

[HyoMinPark]

Admittedly, there are probably discrepancies in the timings, but this is the general goal. So again, if the number of casts is the same regardless of using buffs early or not, what makes the goal of a delayed alignment so subpar?

Because you never, under any circumstances, delay your buffs in your opening burst. There is no inherent reason to sit on damage for the first 15 seconds of the fight, and there has never been a scenario where players hold their bursts for 15 seconds. The sooner you get bursts out, the sooner your burst will come up to be used again. Buff alignment gets manipulated during a fight—be it in the middle or the end—not at the beginning.



You are still incorrect with DNC—again not counting for the fact that you’ve delayed Flourish in both of your proposed openers by a significant amount of seconds, thereby wasting your Technical Finish burst window on unnecessary, random proc chances because you want to Cascade > Fountain immediately after your opening Standard Finish as opposed to setting up Technical Finish immediately (which, in and of itself, reduces any sort of delays on your major damage dealing skills during your only burst window because you won’t have random Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs that you don’t want to overwrite). The optimal opener includes all Flourished procs, all Saber Dance procs, and the Standard Finish within the TF time frame without pushing any of them outside of the buff window in the opener. Your openers, by comparison will likely push your Flourished procs out of the burst window, meaning lost damage because they will not be buffed by Technical Finish’s +5% straight damage. I’ve already explained this to you—you do understand the concept of losing damage, yes? By losing damage, that makes your proposed openers subpar. An optimal opener wouldn’t result in unnecessary losses of damage, or of important skills falling outside of your major burst window.

Here is the optimal DNC opener for you to see what it looks like:
Pre-pull Standard Step (-15 seconds) > Pot (-2 seconds) > Standard Finish (pull) > begin Technical Step > Technical Finish > Flourish > Rising Windmill (pushes stronger procs into other burst windows, such as Trick Attack) > FD3 weave > priority based off of Saber Dance > Standard Finish > Fountainfall/Bloodshower > Reverse Cascade, and using feather procs as they appear.

You do not delay Technical Finish for a Cascade > Fountain combo. The removal of the 1-2 combo means the removal of Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall proc chances, which removes the unnecessary Flourish delay during TF, which ensures that all of your burst (including all Flourished procs) fall within the 20 second window of Technical Finish.

The only deviation from this opener is if you have Dance Partner’d a DRG, in which you weave in Devilment BEFORE you start Technical Finish because it compliments the DRG’s burst better. This is the only deviation, as NIN no longer calls for it since the changes. You do not, however, change when and where Techincal Finish is used. It is only delayed when mechanics call for it (such as the party being too spread out during certain phases: you wait until everyone’s gathered to deploy it), or if you are aiming for a kill time in which you end the fight with a burst window (like E4S: kill times at ~12:30 call for use of Technical at 12 mins so that the party ends the fight while bursting, thereby gaining a higher parse).


By the way, this disclaimer is misleading:

Again, I’d like to stress that by no means does this list claim that all the openers listed here are optimal for every encounter.

These openers are not optimal for any encounter, as you do not delay raid buffs in your opener. Your guide can easily mislead, which is probably why so many people are against it. I’m against it for that reason, and because it is more a push of your personal agenda regarding the viability of Tornado Kick usage. I’m sorry—your resolve to prove TK is viable can be argued as admirable—but you should never change the way jobs function or burst to fit in and optimize a single skill like Tornado Kick.

[Oxdarock]

Because you never, under any circumstances, delay your buffs in your opening burst. There is no inherent reason to sit on damage for the first 15 seconds of the fight, and there has never been a scenario where players hold their bursts for 15 seconds. The sooner you get bursts out, the sooner your burst will come up to be used again. Buff alignment gets manipulated during a fight—be it in the middle or the end—not at the beginning.

I'm not sure what's up with this absolute mindset that there's no reason to ever delay raid buffs, especially when you can ask the question, "What reason is there to use raid buffs early?" to which the answer would be in order to get an extra cast of an ability in overall, due to kill times and/or fight mechanics. Then you say that it's find to hold all buffs at the end, which seems to go against that. In fact, it literally seems to be the same as what I'm proposing here with lining buffs up in the beginnings. What about fights like E2S, which has no downtime? In a speed run where you have a general idea of the kill time, sure, maybe using all buffs early makes sense and get you an extra cast. But when the amount of time most buffs are held is 3 GCDs, how often is that gonna happen?

You are still incorrect with DNC—again not counting for the fact that you’ve delayed Flourish in both of your proposed openers by a significant amount of seconds, thereby wasting your Technical Finish burst window on unnecessary, random proc chances because you want to Cascade > Fountain immediately after your opening Standard Finish as opposed to setting up Technical Finish immediately (which, in and of itself, reduces any sort of delays on your major damage dealing skills during your only burst window because you won’t have random Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs that you don’t want to overwrite). The optimal opener includes all Flourished procs, all Saber Dance procs, and the Standard Finish within the TF time frame without pushing any of them outside of the buff window in the opener. Your openers, by comparison will likely push your Flourished procs out of the burst window, meaning lost damage because they will not be buffed by Technical Finish’s +5% straight damage. I’ve already explained this to you—you do understand the concept of losing damage, yes? By losing damage, that makes your proposed openers subpar. An optimal opener wouldn’t result in unnecessary losses of damage, or of important skills falling outside of your major burst window.

I'm sorry, but it's still not sinking in. Everything within the Tech Finish window is no less than 300 potency for every move, yet you're insistent that this is a definite loss? How? Aside from the first Fountain, everything else in the TF window is a Flourish proc. So long as the two 350 GCDs make it within TF, you're just moving two 300 potency GCDs down the rotation. You don't lose any potency. And if even the 350 potency GCDs get pushed out, that's most likely because you get a lot of SD procs, which take priority with TF over Flourish procs and is actually a good thing. Some I'm at a complete loss when you say that not using all the procs gained by Flourish within TF due to random procs of Cascade -> Fountain and or SD procs is an absolute loss.

[ForteNightshade]

Admittedly, there are probably discrepancies in the timings, but this is the general goal. So again, if the number of casts is the same regardless of using buffs early or not, what makes the goal of a delayed alignment so subpar?

The fact you have to ask this speaks volumes on why you aren't qualify to theorycraft. Delaying buffs without rhyme or reason is a net loss. Earlier you claim delaying buffs comes down to if you'll lose a usage. While true to an extent, your delays on Dragoon work against it. You aren't buffing the strongest ability in our wheel house, and needlessly delaying all our oGCDs. I actually tested your rotation on a dummy compared to the actual Dragoon rotation and the differences are staggering. Simply retaining the oGCDs doesn't account for the fact you're delaying them with absolutely no benefit. Chaos Thrust is stronger than Full Thrust by a whooping 160 potency due to the DoT. Holding buffs for the weaker ability results in a loss no matter how you slice it. And the results don't lie.

These aren't alternative openers. They're simply inferior guesswork with zero purpose.

[Oxdarock]

The fact you have to ask this speaks volumes on why you aren't qualify to theorycraft. Delaying buffs without rhyme or reason is a net loss. Earlier you claim delaying buffs comes down to if you'll lose a usage. While true to an extent, your delays on Dragoon work against it. You aren't buffing the strongest ability in our wheel house, and needlessly delaying all our oGCDs. I actually tested your rotation on a dummy compared to the actual Dragoon rotation and the differences are staggering. Simply retaining the oGCDs doesn't account for the fact you're delaying them with absolutely no benefit. Chaos Thrust is stronger than Full Thrust by a whooping 160 potency due to the DoT. Holding buffs for the weaker ability results in a loss no matter how you slice it. And the results don't lie.

These aren't alternative openers. They're simply inferior guesswork with zero purpose.

I like how you skipped the list of abilities that are supposed to fit within all raid buffs and went straight to end. I know my reason behind this alignment and creating this list. I'm asking for a reason everyone else believes this is completely subpar. I've already stated several times that if early raid buff openers gain you an extra cast overall, then go with those. It's interesting because it's commonly accepted to delay raid buffs towards the end of an encounter apparently, which is the exact same reasoning behind this raid alignment for the opener. So aside from that, what's the reasoning people seem to see that I don't?

As for your DRG test, I place Battle Litany right before Raiden Thrust. It's a 20 second buff, so you should fit in 8 GCDs. How are you not fitting in the second Chaos Thrust? And you stay it's staggeringly different lower, but by what criteria is this going by and are you doing the rotation correctly? I can say for a fact that if you save LotD for the third GsK, if you start Life with StarDiver, you're going to miss the third Nastrond as it comes off CD right before FT, which is when you'd use LS and LC again.

[ForteNightshade]

I like how you skipped the list of abilities that are supposed to fit within all raid buffs and went straight to end. I know my reason behind this alignment and creating this list. I'm asking for a reason everyone else believes this is completely subpar. I've already stated several times that if early raid buff openers gain you an extra cast overall, then go with those. It's interesting because it's commonly accepted to delay raid buffs towards the end of an encounter apparently, which is the exact same reasoning behind this raid alignment for the opener. So aside from that, what's the reasoning people seem to see that I don't?

As for your DRG test, I place Battle Litany right before Raiden Thrust. It's a 20 second buff, so you should fit in 8 GCDs. How are you not fitting in the second Chaos Thrust? And you stay it's staggeringly different lower, but by what criteria is this going by and are you doing the rotation correctly? I can say for a fact that if you save LotD for the third GsK, if you start Life with StarDiver, you're going to miss the third Nastrond as it comes off CD right before FT, which is when you'd use LS and LC again.

Because your alignments are irrelevant. Not only do they hinge on every job following these sub-par openers, they're a loss for the job themselves. The issue is you keep claiming these are an alternative—implying they have some legitimacy—when that is objectively wrong. You have zero statistics supporting your claims; have been told by several people spanning various skill levels and knowledge your assessments are wrong, but you keep presenting these openers as an option. It isn't about simply gaining an extra cast. Your openers are flat out bad. As for delaying buffs, this is done to align with pots not simply on a whim. Ideally, you want 3 minute buffs like Litany to line up with 60/120s buffs. In the event you know you won't get a four use, holding it until an agreed point in the fight is a net gain. Doing so randomly in the opener, is not.

With that in mind. I wasn't talking about the second Chaos Thrust but the first. Delaying Litany in the manner you do means it will fall off at Chaos Thrust. Therefore, you buffed Raiden Thrust and Disembowel instead of Fang and Wheeling—essentially trading 820 potency for 650. The same applies to Lance Charge and Dragon Sight buffing weaker potency GCDs for no reason. Furthermore, you loss >10s on Hi-Jump; more on Spineshatter and Dragonfire. In fights with several down periods like E1S, E3S and E4S, this will cost you a Hi-Jump—a massive loss. In regards to LotD, delaying it beyond your third Geirskogul means you'll either be sitting on it, which is bad, or you'll miss a Nastrond under buffs, which is worse.

That criteria is going by the math you continuously dismiss. And yes, I did your rotation just fine. It's noticeably inferior to the standard Dragoon rotations found on Balance by people with far more qualifications.

[ZyrinMisharuji]

I just curious as to why people believe these are terribly subpar, especially in a situation that gives you the same number of casts whether you use raid buffs as soon as possible or delay them a bit.

I will reiterate my previous post:

1) The current openers listed on Balance are already optimized to push out maximum DPS under raid buffs. The mathematicians on Balance 100% consulted mentors for every job and bounced back and forth when building their openers so that not only does their own job do as much DPS as possible within that window, but also other jobs can push out maximum DPS under their windows using the buffs your job provides (unless you're a tank/SAM/BLM/WHM)

2) Delaying buff windows at the beginning of a fight is never optimal. The ONLY way I could see it being that way is if the boss became untargetable after like 3 GCDs which will never happen (I hope). Delaying buff windows is something you do at later stages of the fight to optimize your kill time and that optimization also depends on how quickly you can kill the boss. In my last post I used Voidwalker as an example and went with a 9:17 or so kill time and in a situation like that you'd delay the 2 minute buffs at the 8 minute mark to align with the 3 minute windows at the 9 minute mark so everyone is ending the fight on maximum buffs to push their DPS just a little further. Other examples become in a fight like Eden Prime where the 3 minute windows come up during add phase, so you'd hold those buffs for when Eden comes back and everyone just does a re-opener. tl;dr never, ever, ever, ever, ever delay openers it is not and will never be optimal.

[Oxdarock]

snip

To answer you points:

1) I will not deny that the Balance makes optimal openers, however with the people I talked to (I guess it's pretty much known that it was the mentors at this point), the concept of holding raid buffs seemed alien to nearly everyone. This leads me to believe that all the openers were made under the rule of using all buffs and bursts as early as possible and that the concept of holding raid buffs and allowing each class to get more of their bigger hits in the most buffs for a longer period of time wasn't really explored.

I'll repeat it again: I do very much encourage the use of early raid buff openers in fights where doing so will gain you an extra cast or prevent you from losing one. Case in point, for E3S, I believe the GNB opener starts its Gnashing combo on the 3rd GCD, much earlier than the usual openers, simply because doing so ensures that a Gnashing combo isn't lost due to Maelstrom. This fact alone makes it stronger overall in E3S (and in a vacuum). However, while it's possible for GNB to do this and follows the rule of "using burst phases as soon as possible", you usually wouldn't in other fights because the bulk of Gnashing misses a lot of raid buffs and using it 3 GCDs earlier probably won't gain you an extra usage of a Gnashing combo overall. This is the best example of my point where "if you can get the same number of casts off whether they're used early or not, then what's wrong with lining them up in a way that every class can make the most use of them?" I even gave a list on page 5 of this thread detailing the GCDs and oGCDs this alignment aims to fit in around 15secs.

2) Again, you say it's never optimal, but you don't really give a clear reason why. As for the example you give, the classes using the 2 minute raid buffs can only hold it for so long, otherwise they'll miss out on a duration of their buffs, which is what happens to all the other classes (now including NIN) regardless of how early their buffs are used in the opener. Even for DRG, which has the earliest raid buff usages in early raid openers, because you still lose out on a duration of their buffs by the end, you have to ask if that's really considered an extra cast. Also, while this might be fine for a speed run, in which you'd reset whenever someone dies, in a regular run where clearing is the goal, as soon as someone dies, that estimated kill time goes right out the window, making the possibility of retaining casts despite delaying raid buffs even higher.

Also, aside from DRG, most of the openers I list delay raid buffs and burst phases no more than 3 GCDs, so how likely are you to lose a cast in a full uptime fight like E2S?

[ZyrinMisharuji]

snip

To reply to your points in order:

1) I don't think anyone truly believes you talked to mentors from Balance to make this doc. If you discussed it with them you could credit them for having given you insight into all of the jobs in the game for you to then use that information to create this document.

To the next point. We aren't using buffs "early" we're using them when it's optimal and where we get the most burst out of them without holding them forever, for example, you're expecting WARs to use 8th GCD IR which is just awful, especially if they don't have NIN/MNK in their group (and if they have MNK your openers would still put Brotherhood out at the 5th GCD meaning IR now misaligns for Brotherhood which is the only buff that perfectly aligns with IR, and IR is 1110 potency more than 2 Inner Chaos uses, and that's without factoring in Onslaught and Upheaval and the autos you get under it). To your point of GNB using Gnashing earlier, that kind of doesn't matter. I don't say it as like "Tank optimization doesn't matter" I mean that the things tanks do to optimize their damage doesn't affect the raid because they aren't putting out raid buffs. So PLD dropping an Atonement after their req window to ensure they go into Maelstrom with a stronger combo doesn't affect the raid at all, it's a personal optimization to mitigate lost uptime.

2) I'm actually going to do a counter question. What actual benefit does delaying the openers give? Currently going through every opener I can for the jobs I have a role for in Balance, every job using the openers in Balance hit their most important/highest damaging skills under raid buffs. Battle Lit, used on 3rd GCD, covers all of DRG's highest potency moves while also ensuring the raid gets everything they want under those windows. A lot of what I see on your list would make jobs lose potency under your suggested buffs and I'm inclined to believe that my thought is correct considering how many people have come and explained and shown proof of how they lose potency under your suggested alignment (even more so when the people telling you that your suggested alignment is a DPS loss are people that I know are mentors on Balance).