crafting is gone

[Callinon]

You mean, was.

The subscription numbers have tanked, and the only reason it is doing okay today is because of a bunch of people with rose-colored goggles all ooo and ahhh over Classic, but that will eventually wear off when the content stagnates and the playerbase gets split over whether or not to go to TBC classic or just stay at Vanilla classic. But it will eventually stagnate. That part is inevitable.

Without Classic WoW, their numbers were lower than XIV's. WoW's been on the decline since 8.0 while XIV has only been rising and rising and rising.

BfA was met with sharp criticism over... well.... the majority of the game systems, while ShB was received with astounding praises, other than perhaps Healers.

Even if FFXIV has more subscribers right now than WoW 8.0 has, it doesn't take away the success of the prior 15 years. WoW is the most successful MMORPG of all time.

[Maeka]

Even if FFXIV has more subscribers right now than WoW 8.0 has, it doesn't take away the success of the prior 15 years. WoW is the most successful MMORPG of all time.

FFXIV hasn't even been around for 15 years yet.

We're only about 5 years in (not counting 1.0....)

Where was WoW 5 years into its lifespan? That would be Mid-Wrath, at where WoW peaked and then started falling right afterwards during early Cataclysm.

If FFXIV goes through this year without having a similar fall, then I think we could say that FFXIV is on the track of being more successful than WoW was.

EDIT: Yeesh, it took WoW 5 years to get from Vanilla to Mid-Wrath... but it only took 4 years to get from beginning of Draenor, through Legion, to beginning of BfA, lol.

EDIT2: I also wanna point out that Cataclysm is a perfect example of what one should NOT do with a highly successful MMO. Anybody remember the ludicrously hard content because all the hardcores were whining during Wrath? Look at what happened to the subscription numbers when your average player could *not* handle the Heroics in Cataclysm, lol. They tanked heavily. I remember even outdoor content being way too difficult, esp Tol Barad...

[Vahlnir]

FFXIV hasn't even been around for 15 years yet.

We're only about 5 years in.

Where was WoW 5 years into its lifespan? That would be Mid-Wrath, at where WoW peaked and then started falling right afterwards during early Cataclysm.

If FFXIV goes through this year without having a similar fall, then I think we could say that FFXIV is on the track of being more successful than WoW was.

But it is still the most successful MMO of all time. It already took that crown. They've all but thrown that crown into the trash in recent years but the fact remains that they got it. I want FF XIV to do well, and it is. But I don't think we're ever going to see 12 million + subscription numbers at once. Every MMO that has come before and after WoW has never been able to achieve that. They nearly broke their own record with WoD with an alleged 10 million players at launch, but within 6 months literally half of the player base up and left because of how bad it was. So they set another personal record, and not a good one. A record that led them to stop reporting sub numbers which were supposedly around the 3 million mark when they stopped counting.

[Maeka]

But it is still the most successful MMO of all time. It already took that crown. They've all but thrown that crown into the trash in recent years but the fact remains that they got it. I want FF XIV to do well, and it is. But I don't think we're ever going to see 12 million + subscription numbers at once. Every MMO that has come before and after WoW has never been able to achieve that. They nearly broke their own record with WoD with an alleged 10 million players at launch, but within 6 months literally half of the player base up and left because of how bad it was. So they set another personal record, and not a good one. A record that led them to stop reporting sub numbers which were supposedly around the 3 million mark when they stopped counting.

I guess if you count pure subscription numbers as "success", maybe.

I have... more criteria than just that, personally. You can get people to come, but do they stay? Subscription based services are only good if people stick around. Otherwise you get 1 month of sub and then the customer leaves and you get nothing afterward. I'd think a game that has 100k subs who stick around for 5 years is more successful than the game that has 200k subs, where 150k of them only stick around for 3 months.

[CookiesNCreams]

I guess if you count pure subscription numbers as "success", maybe.

I have... more criteria than just that, personally. You can get people to come, but do they stay? Subscription based services are only good if people stick around. Otherwise you get 1 month of sub and then the customer leaves and you get nothing afterward. I'd think a game that has 100k subs who stick around for 5 years is more successful than the game that has 200k subs, where 150k of them only stick around for 3 months.

Amen to that, lol.

Casuals and hardcores deserve content and care. Do that, your game will be big. And FFXIV is on a wonderful, more successful path than WoW did at the 5 year mark, starting with 5.1. Imagine where FFXIV will be in another 6-7 years.

Anywho, my point is... crafting should have casual and hardcore content. I think anything that's not Star recipes should be made a bit more accessible and easier, but Star recipes should be difficult. 1-Star is like Extreme Primals, 3-Star is like Savage Raid, and 4-Star is Ultimate, IMO.

As much as I campaign for easier crafting, I am perfectly fine with not being able to do Star recipes. I don't, however, like seeing normal recipes being so bloody difficult to do while leveling. I just don't think that should be a thing.

Perfectly said. Couldn’t agree more. For some reason though, most of FFXIV’s community is a tad bit selfish, and believe hardcore players do not deserve content or attention even in the 1% - 5% slightest. It’s all about them. Then forgetting these people also pay for the game, not just them.

Luckily Yoshida is a cool guy, and he’s not one for discriminating against others. I assume this crafting change didn’t happen during 4.x because they were so focused on Hrothgar and Viera, etc.

[Brill_]

Anywho, my point is... crafting should have casual and hardcore content. I think anything that's not Star recipes should be made a bit more accessible and easier, but Star recipes should be difficult. 1-Star is like Extreme Primals, 3-Star is like Savage Raid, and 4-Star is Ultimate, IMO.

As much as I campaign for easier crafting, I am perfectly fine with not being able to do Star recipes. I don't, however, like seeing normal recipes being so bloody difficult to do while leveling. I just don't think that should be a thing.

Thats fine. But it sounds like the star crafts will be dependent on RNG, which is not skill or difficulty, it's just luck. Can you imagine if clearing savage was dependent on a certain mechanic to proc during the fight?

[Maeka]

Thats fine. But it sounds like the star crafts will be dependent on RNG, which is not skill or difficulty, it's just luck. Can you imagine if clearing savage was dependent on a certain mechanic to proc during the fight?

No, but how else would you make crafting challenging, and difficult to macro?

Yoshi-P wants to get away from one-button macros that anybody could do given enough time gearing up.

He wants expert level crafting to actually interact with the game and know what they should do when. The only way I can think of to accomplish that is with the proc system. How RNG will it be, exactly? Maybe in 20 steps you are guaranteed 1 excellent and 3 good and it's just random exactly when they happen so you have to plan ahead and be ready for them?

[CookiesNCreams]

Thats fine. But it sounds like the star crafts will be dependent on RNG, which is not skill or difficulty, it's just luck. Can you imagine if clearing savage was dependent on a certain mechanic to proc during the fight?

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a skill based crafting system...but...it seems like a skill based system can’t be done for some reason, otherwise they’d have done it by now. So, in order to please the hardcore players that want endgame harder, they’re only left with RNG as a choice. (At the moment)

I mean, choose. Would you prefer a endgame crafting system where even a 12 year old that screams “i F’d ur mom” on call of duty can HQ top endgame recipes? Or a system where there’s RNG, but when you complete a recipe, it feels rewarding.

Obviously the latter is going to be their choice when it comes to increasing difficulty. FFXIV isn’t a phone game, it should not be 100% easy. There should be content for both types of players. Casuals and hardcores. To argue otherwise is basically just being selfish. I wouldn’t want FFXIV to be 100% hardcore, that’s not fair to people that want some easy content.

[Callinon]

I mean, choose. Would you prefer a endgame crafting system where even a 12 year old that screams “i F’d ur mom” on call of duty can HQ top endgame recipes? Or a system where there’s RNG, but when you complete a recipe, it feels rewarding.

I'd rather crafting was deterministic. I want what I do to dictate the quality and success of my crafting. So yeah, that 12-year old COULD craft under that system. And he can shout at the crafting bar while he's doing it.. whatever gets him going.

There's nothing rewarding about luck unless you're a gambler. Let me put that another way: You go to a casino, you place a bet on the roulette table. The wheel comes up and you're a winner! Was that because of anything you did? No. No it wasn't. You had zero influence over that wheel. You just got lucky that it matched your bet.

Now do I expect this to end up THAT random? I do not. But the principle is the same. When the success or failure of a crafting session is down to luck instead of the actions I choose to take, that's actually just bad design. Frankly, that feels MORE like a phone game since you brought it up.

[SamSmoot]

Now do I expect this to end up THAT random? I do not. But the principle is the same. When the success or failure of a crafting session is down to luck instead of the actions I choose to take, that's actually just bad design. Frankly, that feels MORE like a phone game since you brought it up.

It doesn't have to be pure luck. Roulette and whack-a-mole are both random, but skill and alertness will always let you win in the second..
Just make it so you're guaranteed to get enough procs to get HQ with NQ mats at level, IF you react to all of the correctly. Miss a few, and you get NQ. Miss most of them, and it's a failed synth. Of course, HQ mats and high stats should help, but never enough to let you ignore all the procs.