crafting is gone

[Fluffernuff]

Every job quest on crafting feels to me like playing savage at 99th percentile.

I'm not sure which set youre referring to, but..

1-60, you dont even need to craft yourself- they can be made for you or purchased.

61-70, you need to craft yourself, but the materials are provided for you for free with no cost and you can keep trying.
additionally, much like the beast tribe quests, these recipes have radically reduced difficulty scaling compared to same at-level recipes.

71-80, we dont have quests, and the facets are even more undertuned than before.


But like I said, the "difficulty" isnt because crafting is hard. it's because the system is poorly explained to you. and abilities arent obviously good or bad because of it. It's convoluted, but once you wade through the madness, and things "click" it becomes almost thoughtless. it feels like a toggle. it's very "you get it or you dont".

add onto this that your skills do the exact same thing every single time you press it (dependent on gear, of course).


I do not doubt players who do not understand, or new, or dont care to know find crafting difficult. In fact, if it werent the case, people wouldnt have been complaining. and i dont think this move would be happening.
But objectively speaking, it has not been. It's just a matter of understanding the system- not even having a rotation... just the system. it's like a melee who finally discovers what an AoE is, a positional, the combo system. once you get it, you get it. and the very absolute nature of crafting from there allows universal macros to work with little further input. the other limiting factor is the stats. you can understand the system and do well, but if you dont have the gear, too... it can be an ordeal trying to make things work.

All this to say that your personal experience isn't wrong, i have the same issue with healing, myself. But that it isnt universal.

[Fluffernuff]

double posting for the sake of not having 1 massive word wall that diverts from the initial post, i apologize;

I'll admit to and not having experience in 1.0 crafting. i joined midway through into 3.1. But even looking back at my beginning days and getting to omnicrafting before SB hit... it still wasn't "hard". at the worst, it was RNG and gear gated. Hasty touch was a staple for it's quality increase at no CP cost. but a 50/80% chance isn't reliable. Maker's mark and Flawless synthesis were also staples during this time. sure was hard getting your goldsmith to level 54 and pressing the same 1 button 28 times before starting an actual rotation, wasn't it? if 1.0 was dependent on or revolved around abilities like hasty, and it was "hard" because things weren't reliable... then I will have to agree to disagree. that isn't hard. that is simply tedious and rewards were unearned.

Frankly, Hasty failing on you wasn't hard. it was tedious. you didn't fail because you were terrible. You didn't fail because you didn't understand what you were doing. you failed because the game said so. you were punished for doing the proper ability for the proper reason. That isn't "difficulty".
There's a reason traditionally "hard" games that are ACTUALLY beloved (Dark souls, contra, battletoads, rogue, etc.) have little to NO random elements- they are games of patience, memorization, learning, and execution, and punishment is swift. you immediately know why you failed, when, and what needs to change on YOUR end.
This is the same view i hold towards the "excellent" and "poor" conditions. "poor" exists as a counter or punishment toward receiving "excellent"- a benefit the player has no control over and therefor cannot always receive the benefit of.

[CookiesNCreams]

Frankly, Hasty failing on you wasn't hard. it was tedious. you didn't fail because you were terrible. You didn't fail because you didn't understand what you were doing. you failed because the game said so. you were punished for doing the proper ability for the proper reason. That isn't "difficulty".

You're right, crafting in the past was incredibly tedious. But if you look at the very definition of the word difficult:

dif·fi·cult
/ˈdifəkəlt/
adjective
needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.

That is the definition of the word difficult. Crafting needed much effort to accomplish, therefore it was difficult. To argue otherwise is nonsense, that is the definition of the word. Did it take skill? No. Did it take understanding? Only if you wanted to improve your HQ chances. But it was "difficult" because of the large amount of time/effort needed. It was difficult enough that many players did not attempt it. If it were easy, they would.

[Fluffernuff]

That is the definition of the word difficult. Crafting needed much effort to accomplish, therefore it was difficult. To argue otherwise is nonsense, that is the definition of the word. Did it take skill? No. Did it take understanding? Only if you wanted to improve your HQ chances. But it was "difficult" because of the large amount of time/effort needed. It was difficult enough that many players did not attempt it. If it were easy, they would.

I disagree with your use and assignment of the definition. in fact, lets use another one for you;

effort noun
ef·​fort | \ ˈe-fərt
, -ˌfȯrt\

"conscious exertion of power : hard work "
"a serious attempt"
"something produced by exertion or trying "

Effort was not needed to get to 50. or 60. or 70. or 80. Levekits exist. the Market board exists. They were not new inventions which SB. or ShB. If you have any friends or FC members looking out for you, these do not even require gil. you can be given the entire set of items- through no exertion of your own, stand in place, and click your right mouse button a few hundred times. This does not meet the requirement of "Effort".

skill noun
\ ˈskil
\
"the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance"
"dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks"
"a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability "

as with effort, getting to level 50/60/70/80 and even gearing and materia required none of this- it can be given outright to you. potentially without any cost. and at this point, you can plug in a macro which takes no effort or skill to acquire.

the ability to be given levels outright by other players is WHOLLY unique to crafting. the closest thing we have is to buy a level jump for a singular battle class for real world cash. otherwise, you must complete quests. you must play your job. you must gather.

Crafting is the notable outlier requiring literal 0 input to not only advance in level, but to satisfy the highest percent of content locked behind it. leves were not added in ShB. they were not added in SB. they were not added in HW. I am not convinced by a singular misplaced and poorly used definition of a singular word in this exchange.

as an addition; "time" is such a constant, vague, and worthless addition to difficulty- which is why its NOT added into the definition. it takes "time" to take in a breath. is it difficult? no. it takes "time" to walk to the store. is it difficult? no. time is a constant and effects all aspects of everything- its the combination with skill and effort itself that it starts to hold meaning in this stake. 2 things i do not believe have existed with crafting for several years now


The only part of "difficulty" we can potentially see eye to eye on (if we can decide where you even stand here), is that it takes an understanding to do your own crafting without these methods; the 2 notable things being weekly collectibles you must craft yourself and very specifically the 70-80 quests where you must craft the items yourself. and that "difficulty" is what we've already agreed upon- it is tedious, archaic, and convoluted. It is simply a wall of information to be sifted through.


in the VERY strictest of terms, there are shades of being "difficult"- i even agreed to this before in the double post. I personally find healing to be "difficult". it is a particular set of abilities my brain just doesnt agree with; however.... take a look at the healer forums. reddit. the balance discord. tell me how many players consider healing "difficult".
an easily bypassed or surmounted aspect of something does not make the whole. as it stands, as it has always stood, crafting requires very little from you.

I simply believe there was never a "good old days" of crafting. it has not changed over time. it has simply bloated and we have gotten much more effective and obvious abilties to make the system unable to keep up with it's own power creep.

I will offer a concession though;
the only potential outlier to this is 1.0. i have not researched into what skills you had. I am hesitant to talk about things i do not firmly have my own thoughts/fact to fall back on. it could have been a system that did not rely on manipulating a %age skill for a static result.
But even agreeing to that...... it does not change the reality we have had for 6 years now; we are at the logical evolution to a flawed system

[CookiesNCreams]

Effort was not needed to get to 50. or 60. or 70. or 80. Levekits exist. the Market board exists.

I think we both agree that leveling crafting is just a matter of time, and essentially no thought or skill is required to level it.

As for difficult/effort though, you could apply the shortcut logic to almost anything in game or in life:

It takes effort or skill to complete raids in ffxiv... no, you could buy clears, therefore endgame raids are easy.
It takes effort to earn gil in ffxiv... no, it can be bought, therefore earning gil is easy.
It takes effort to earn irl money... no, you could win the lottery or get welfare, therefore getting money is easy.
It takes effort to complete a marathon... no, you could get a ride, therefore completing a marathon is easy.
It takes effort to cook food... no, you could could eat out or buy a precooked meal, therefore cooking food is easy.

But even if someone chooses to do only leves to level crafts, and they have friends provide them everything to turn in, it is effort by definition:

"a serious attempt"

Even with leves, a player is making a serious attempt to level their crafts. It takes hundreds of leves, each leve requires HQ items, unless you want to use double the leves. They must obtain all these items somehow. Even if these items are all handed to them, effort... a serious attempt... was spent by the player as well as the others helping the player to obtain and turn in the leve items.

It takes around 1,200 leves to get crafts to 80... that is 200 days worth of leves since you only get 6 per day. So, even doing the easiest possible crafting leveling takes dedication. It is a serious attempt, so it takes effort, so it is difficult. BUT... it is difficult only in the sense that it is a huge grind, taking a lot of time. In no other way is it difficult.

Most players have to spend a huge amount of time and/or gil to level crafting, which is good, it gives a player a sense of accomplishment completing it.

Anyway, I have no issue with SE making it easier or harder to level crafts, it was never anything but a grind. I am interested in end game crafting being too easy now. That is what is "dead" now... end game crafting. Once someone reaches level 80 crafting, all they need is a set of inexpensive gear, spend a few hours producing their own materia needed for melding or just buy the materia, copy a macro from online, buy a few mats on the MB, then bam they are an end game crafter just like everyone else at lv 80 and can guaranteed 100% HQ everything. If the only way SE can think of to make end game crafting more difficult is by adding RNG and using materials which are very grindy to obtain such that each end game craft puts a lot of time and/or gil on the line, then so be it. Better that than end game crafting being what it is now with HQ end game crafted gear being sold on the market at the prices of NQ NPC gear.

[NanaWiloh]

Just read over what was discussed about crafting in the live letter. Sounds like when it comes to the rebalancing of skills, their aiming to adjust it so that if you have NOT taken the time and effort to gear optimally and prepare yourself that you will find hitting HQ on high end crafts harder. Which in my opinion is how it should be and something I've pointed out, for High end crafts you should prepared beyond what you would do for just leveling. For those who have decked themselves out in full HQ 430+melds/440 with food and pot, alongside a solid rotation HQ will be do able. If you have not gotten to the point or taken the effort then it will be far harder.

[DarkEiraStar]

I spent more than a week, 12-16 hours a day, gathering mats and crafting collectibles to buy materia to pentameld. I broke at least 20-50 materia per gear slot

[CookiesNCreams]

Just read over what was discussed about crafting in the live letter. Sounds like when it comes to the rebalancing of skills, their aiming to adjust it so that if you have NOT taken the time and effort to gear optimally and prepare yourself that you will find hitting HQ on high end crafts harder. Which in my opinion is how it should be and something I've pointed out, for High end crafts you should prepared beyond what you would do for just leveling. For those who have decked themselves out in full HQ 430+melds/440 with food and pot, alongside a solid rotation HQ will be do able. If you have not gotten to the point or taken the effort then it will be far harder.

Based on what SE said, I think you're right... the end game crafts will almost certainly not be guaranteed to HQ if you don't have the best gear with some melds. The question is, will they make the quality requirements high enough, or will someone who melded tier 8 into all the guaranteed slots and slapped on a bunch of tier 4 overmelds be able to 100% the crafts from zero quality. If someone with mediocre melds like that can still 100% crafts from zero using a fixed macro, I would say nothing has changed... hopefully this will not be the case. Just my opinion, but if someone has not bothered to do good melds, then they should be forced to use HQ mats in order to HQ the end game crafts consistently. Like, take your pick, spend the extra effort melding, or, spend the extra effort making some HQ mats.

The difference with melds is significant, for my characters, only one is max melded which at the time cost roughly 30 mil gil worth of materia (although I made most myself). The following are the differences in stats between a max melded crafter, one with tier 8 in guaranteed with tier 4 overmelds (which currently costs under 2 mil for the tier 8's and about 500k worth of tier 4), and one with no melds at all (craftsmanship/control/CP):

Max Melded: 2316/2332/541
T8 w/ T4 overmelds: 2183/2181/541 (see https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1B1MN)
No Melds: 2087/1942/449

I've heard many say that melding costs a lot, but 2.5 mil can be obtained in a single day by just about anyone. It would take about 8 hours of gathering, or 10 hours of doing FATEs / hunts, etc. Or you could obtain the materia yourself for free, for that amount of materia it should take someone all of 6 hours of combined gathering and crafting collectables for scrips to get materia. If a player cannot be bothered to spend several hours preparing their crafting classes for end game content, then I don't really know what to say, and I don't know why they bothered spending dozens or hundreds of hours leveling their crafts in the first place.

[CookiesNCreams]

I spent more than a week, 12-16 hours a day, gathering mats and crafting collectibles to buy materia to pentameld. I broke at least 20-50 materia per gear slot

I assume you spent that amount of time grinding in order to max meld your crafting gear? That sounds about right for max melds if you gathered all the mats yourself to make collectables. For mediocre melds it would take a lot less time.

[NanaWiloh]

Based on what SE said, I think you're right... the end game crafts will almost certainly not be guaranteed to HQ if you don't have the best gear with some melds. The question is, will they make the quality requirements high enough, or will someone who melded tier 8 into all the guaranteed slots and slapped on a bunch of tier 4 overmelds be able to 100% the crafts from zero quality. If someone with mediocre melds like that can still 100% crafts from zero using a fixed macro, I would say nothing has changed... hopefully this will not be the case. Just my opinion, but if someone has not bothered to do good melds, then they should be forced to use HQ mats in order to HQ the end game crafts consistently. Like, take your pick, spend the extra effort melding, or, spend the extra effort making some HQ mats.

The difference with melds is significant, for my characters, only one is max melded which at the time cost roughly 30 mil gil worth of materia (although I made most myself). The following are the differences in stats between a max melded crafter, one with tier 8 in guaranteed with tier 4 overmelds (which currently costs under 2 mil for the tier 8's and about 500k worth of tier 4), and one with no melds at all (craftsmanship/control/CP):

Max Melded: 2316/2332/541
T8 w/ T4 overmelds: 2183/2181/541 (see https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1B1MN)
No Melds: 2087/1942/449

I've heard many say that melding costs a lot, but 2.5 mil can be obtained in a single day by just about anyone. It would take about 8 hours of gathering, or 10 hours of doing FATEs / hunts, etc. Or you could obtain the materia yourself for free, for that amount of materia it should take someone all of 6 hours of combined gathering and crafting collectables for scrips to get materia. If a player cannot be bothered to spend several hours preparing their crafting classes for end game content, then I don't really know what to say, and I don't know why they bothered spending dozens or hundreds of hours leveling their crafts in the first place.

I have completely held off on finishing my melds. Until 5.1's release even a guide I found recently has its site down due to the incoming changes. I will say I did some prep for this and stock piled materia some for slots and some to get started on overmelds. In no hurry to get all my master 7 books, so dont mind splitting my weekly scripts between books and more materia.

I am likely going the middle road for materia t8 /wt4 overmelds. I dont have a lot of issues with getting hq mats been using them pretty much the whole leveling proccess. Its now become a habbit for me I prefer hq over nq when it comes to mats..