How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[ForteNightshade]

All the tanks are within a few % points of each other in regards to damage, SE doesn't need to mess with it.

They're not very good at scalpels vs hammers.

While that may be true. It doesn't look at the whole picture. When it comes to what each tank offers overall, they're much more noticeably apart—with Warrior being decidedly behind. It isn't a pressing need like the Range DPS, Red Mage or Summoner, but it is worth mentioning. There's a reason Paladin has more than double Warrior uploads.

[YusiKha]

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I had a quick run-through of logs to get the values, and it showed Excog and Equilibrium both healing ~33k on average, their cure potencies are different (1200 vs 800).
What do you mean 'you shouldn't need to self heal at all'? healer plans include all of your skills as well and if you can trade an Excog/Lustrate for an Energy Drain, or a GCD heal for a Glare/Broil, then you've just gained some free damage, no matter how small.
Divine Veil is stronger than Shake, I'll give you that.
But Shake it Off is 12% mitigation raw, and that's on magical as well as physical damage. That is straight up better than Missionary and Heart. On top of that, since it's a shield and not %mitigation, it scales linearly with extra cooldowns. Reprisal + Heart = 100%*0.9^2 = 81% So that Heart is actually only 9%.
On top of Shake being stronger at base you can also buff it with your paltry 25s Raw Intuition, so it's basically always 14%. When used with even 1 other tool it's instantly stronger than Passage. On a shorter cooldown. Without losing any uptime.

snip

Shelltron's counterpart is Raw Intuition, not Thrill, as they're on approximately the same cooldown (22s vs 25s) and can be used instead to mitigate for an ally (Intervention vs Nascent Flash). People don't use cover because you could just tank swap and Intervention.
Thrill isn't a buffer, it's a 20% shield with weird wording + healing buff (all heals, not just GCDs). Thrill is a 2nd, better, Rampart, with the same advantage as Shake when it comes to mitigation stacking.

WAR boasts better self-mitigation than PLD
Better raidwide mitigation than DRK and GNB
It only doesn't excel at an OT-role, but even then with all the MT+OT hitting skills (E2 Busters, E3 Autos) Nascent's self+ally heal is pulling double-duties. And the heal might even be stronger than the flat% mitigation others provide

WAR is a middle-of-the-road tank. A jack of all trades, which isn't a bad thing.

[BarretOblivion]

I had a quick run-through of logs to get the values, and it showed Excog and Equilibrium both healing ~33k on average, their cure potencies are different (1200 vs 800).
What do you mean 'you shouldn't need to self heal at all'? healer plans include all of your skills as well and if you can trade an Excog/Lustrate for an Energy Drain, or a GCD heal for a Glare/Broil, then you've just gained some free damage, no matter how small.
Divine Veil is stronger than Shake, I'll give you that.
But Shake it Off is 12% mitigation raw, and that's on magical as well as physical damage. That is straight up better than Missionary and Heart. On top of that, since it's a shield and not %mitigation, it scales linearly with extra cooldowns. Reprisal + Heart = 100%*0.9^2 = 81% So that Heart is actually only 9%.
On top of Shake being stronger at base you can also buff it with your paltry 25s Raw Intuition, so it's basically always 14%. When used with even 1 other tool it's instantly stronger than Passage. On a shorter cooldown. Without losing any uptime.



Shelltron's counterpart is Raw Intuition, not Thrill, as they're on approximately the same cooldown (22s vs 25s) and can be used instead to mitigate for an ally (Intervention vs Nascent Flash). People don't use cover because you could just tank swap and Intervention.
Thrill isn't a buffer, it's a 20% shield with weird wording + healing buff (all heals, not just GCDs). Thrill is a 2nd, better, Rampart, with the same advantage as Shake when it comes to mitigation stacking.

WAR boasts better self-mitigation than PLD
Better raidwide mitigation than DRK and GNB
It only doesn't excel at an OT-role, but even then with all the MT+OT hitting skills (E2 Busters, E3 Autos) Nascent's self+ally heal is pulling double-duties. And the heal might even be stronger than the flat% mitigation others provide

WAR is a middle-of-the-road tank. A jack of all trades, which isn't a bad thing.

In the end you still don’t need that extra mit because most healers don’t care as long as you survive. Full stop. War king of mit means nothing right now as it’s clear numbers are at the bottom.

[YusiKha]

In the end you still don’t need that extra mit because most healers don’t care as long as you survive. Full stop. War king of mit means nothing right now as it’s clear numbers are at the bottom.

Then no tank's mitigation skills matter. I can move goalposts too.
Its clear rate is at the bottom because it's boring to play.

[BarretOblivion]

Then no tank's mitigation skills matter. I can move goalposts too.
Its clear rate is at the bottom because it's boring to play.

It’s not just that. You are over valuing a small bonus that many don’t care about. These very small bonuses are useless on War mostly on this tier because... it’s a heavy forced tank swap tier, besides E2S you have to tank swap after every tank buster, meaning mitigation tools don’t matter much when you only need 2 every time to take a tb or you invuln. War is the worst tank interns of playing, but Drk isn’t much different. So when/ if War gets some nice changes it might be played 3rd most... but Pld/Gnb will likely stay the top unless War gets a rework

[Shurrikhan]

I had a quick run-through of logs to get the values, and it showed Excog and Equilibrium both healing ~33k on average, their cure potencies are different (1200 vs 800).

They're two different currencies. 800 healer/caster/ranged potency is 1040 melee/tank potency. The majority of jobs have an innate 30% increase to damage and healing dealt. Tanks and melee do not. You cannot directly compare their potencies.

I'll have to check also if Equilibrium is affected by Assylum and the like...

(Yes, I'm aware that that largely defeats the point of using standard potencies if we have to not only compare them against buffs, but also base traits and roles, but... that's the direction they decided to go with as of SB. *Shrug*)

[Reynhart]

(Yes, I'm aware that that largely defeats the point of using standard potencies if we have to not only compare them against buffs, but also base traits and roles, but... that's the direction they decided to go with as of SB. *Shrug*)

"Maim and Mend" has been a thing since A Realm Reborn.

[Shurrikhan]

"Maim and Mend" has been a thing since A Realm Reborn.

Taking melee and tanks off of Increased Action Damage I/II/III has only been a thing since ARR. Same with capping Ranged at IAD2.

It used to be everyone gets a flat +30%, thus potencies were even across the board (NIN via 20% on DB and 10% on poisons by the same level the rest hit 30% base).

Now, Casters and healers get +30%, Ranged get +20%, and tanks and melee get +0%.

...Why? Why not just change the potencies themselves and save us the hassle of 3 currencies?

[Reynhart]

Taking melee and tanks off of Increased Action Damage I/II/III has only been a thing since ARR.

Technically, Tanks never had "Increased Action Damage I/II/III". They had increase Vitality, which gave increased damage only for 2/3rd of Heavensward.
And even then if was +Flat stats for melee, not %

[Shurrikhan]

Technically, Tanks never had "Increased Action Damage I/II/III". They had increase Vitality, which gave increased damage only for 2/3rd of Heavensward.
And even then if was +Flat stats for melee, not %

Every job had +stats, each over 3 increments. The flat buffs and percentile buffs have never been mutually exclusive; we each had both.

Consider: Despite Aeolian Edge having higher potency than Full Thrust, it did less damage. Note that Ninja's Wasp Venom gave +5% damage originally, then Viper's Venom gave 10%, then both did, atop a Dripping Blades I/II modifier of 10/20% (yes, atop +Dexterity stat traits). This you can still find online, as neither entry has been used since and therefore have not been updated. Add to this the Slashing effect from Dancing Edge. Disembowel and Heavy Thrust, at +20/21% vs. that +40/43%, could not make up for Ninja's modifier. Yet, Full Thrust did more damage despite its slightly lower potency (350 vs 360 at the time). That means Lancer had to have its own base damage traits.

And I don't think there's any way Monk could have competed against either of those at the 130 Bootshine, 150 Dragon Kick, 150 True Strike, 140 Twin Snakes, 180 Snap Punch potencies it had at the time if not for a similar Increased Action Damage trait. I'm looking for old databases for it, but as it shares a name with what the Ranged jobs still use, it's hard to find anything that hasn't been updated to check.

And, again... Why? Why put a scalar on only half the roster?