How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Lyth]

Anyone can wipe a group in raid content.

You're quite deliberately misrepresenting me, though. I'm not made of straw. As I said earlier, it's a question of impact. In ARR and Heavensward, for example, there was more emphasis placed on manually positioning bosses. It also so happened that a sizeable portion of your damage (40%!) came from autos, which were dependent on both uptime and the direction that you were facing. Wrong direction? No autos for you.

Looking back at some of those earlier videos, some of the gameplay techniques used were quite elegant to watch. Tanks would strafe around bosses to pick up adds, without losing directional contact or autos. They'd backstep bosses away from AoEs and mechanics, strafe around to land a stun, and strafe back to continue backstepping, again without losing autos. I don't think that tanks have ever been rotationally complex, but this is one way in which damage output and good tanking can and should intersect. With the auto-positioning bosses of Stormblood and Shadowbringers, my complaint isn't just that we're more often than not glorified melee dps without positionals, but we have less agency over the fight than they do to boot. And it's done in the name of making tanks more "accessible".

You are partially right, though. I picked tank because I wanted a bigger portion of the group's total responsibility. Impact. Not merely dps. Impact.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with healers contributing a more sizeable proportion of dps as well. For some bizarre reason, that seems to be a more controversial issue amongst healers than it is amongst tanks.

[nalol]

having a tank is also a way to keep all mobs on same target. ever tried to heal a group with different dps stealing aggro to each other or mobs going to the healer and having to heal 3 main targets ?
and yes the tank busters are a way to force u to take a tank .. like AoEs forces u to take a healer.

otherwise u end up seeing groups with only DPS coz they are the fastest to clear

[Lyth]

If fight designers expect us to be "part-time tanks" in raid content (i.e. taking turns 'actively tanking' until one of four tankbusters per fight initiates a swap), then what are we doing the rest of the time? We're not positioning. We're probably not mitigating. I wonder what we're doing. Hmm. "I've finished my shift for the evening, going to clock out, good luck with tanking the rest of the fight!"

Healing is and always will involve a degree of shared responsibility. You can divide it up however you like. I'm not really sure if there's an equivalent for a 'provoke war' between two healers. You're never really in completion for the privilege of healing. As an aside, I'm going to be terribly amused when this new 24p instance comes out in 5.1. These have been historically terrible at designing content for multiple tanks, and with the very poorly thought out changes to provoke in 5.0 (i.e. gain aggro + gain a massive amount enmity on top, on the order of 200k), hilarity will surely ensue. I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop.

The changes to the damage penalty of tank stance isn't really a justification for the adjustments to relative damage output. If you were using tank stance in previous tiers, or if even if you were "stance dancing" (i.e. using tank stance for some of the time to compensate for a poorly thought out mitigation rotation), you were probably on the bottom half of the bell curve. By Stormblood, the vast majority of tanks were in the know that tank stance stays off in raid content if you want good performance from a damage output standpoint. No favours were done in removing it. We just unmasked the truth of the matter.

[MerlinCross]

If fight designers expect us to be "part-time tanks" in raid content (i.e. taking turns 'actively tanking' until one of four tankbusters per fight initiates a swap), then what are we doing the rest of the time? We're not positioning. We're probably not mitigating. I wonder what we're doing. Hmm. "I've finished my shift for the evening, going to clock out, good luck with tanking the rest of the fight!"

Depends on the fight. There's a couple older fights that zapped the MT and anyone who was close or required tanks to split damage with each other or party members. Personally I'd rather have more things that take into account "Hey we have 2 meaty targets" than more damage.

Because if Damage is all we really care about; ax the second tank, bring a 5th DPS, ax the double tank mechanics we currently have and give more focus on keeping the only Tank alive(Oh look maybe healers have something to do and the DPS loss can be made up by the new DPS).

Also I'll take being on the bottom of the bell curve if it meant I felt like I was doing something more than just being Blue DPS. You top raiders(riiiiiiiiight) all complained about the stance and they went "Fine, they hate it so much, removed" and we got nothing to replace it with. "Damage output standpoint" yeah as for more tanking output rather than crying about FFLogs all the time.

I don't even know what tanks want to do anymore besides out DPS MNK and BLM these days it seems. Yes, damage is the only thing that matters after a certain point so why not ask for SOMETHING ELSE? Oh wait no you'll master it and go right back to needing more damage.

So yeah, Kill off the OT position already, let those that want more damage bring the 5th DPS they always actually wanted to do since Heavensward. Besides, how many upper half of the bell curve raiders actually try to salvage it if the MT goes down? Just speeds everything up. Do it Square.

[Risvertasashi]

Because if Damage is all we really care about; ax the second tank, bring a 5th DPS, ax the double tank mechanics we currently have and give more focus on keeping the only Tank alive(Oh look maybe healers have something to do and the DPS loss can be made up by the new DPS).

-snip-

So yeah, Kill off the OT position already, let those that want more damage bring the 5th DPS they always actually wanted to do since Heavensward.

You're forgetting one crucial thing. They not only want the extreme DPS, they want to have tank queues while doing it.

[Nedkel]

Depends on the fight. There's a couple older fights that zapped the MT and anyone who was close or required tanks to split damage with each other or party members. Personally I'd rather have more things that take into account "Hey we have 2 meaty targets" than more damage.

Because if Damage is all we really care about; ax the second tank, bring a 5th DPS, ax the double tank mechanics we currently have and give more focus on keeping the only Tank alive(Oh look maybe healers have something to do and the DPS loss can be made up by the new DPS).

Also I'll take being on the bottom of the bell curve if it meant I felt like I was doing something more than just being Blue DPS. You top raiders(riiiiiiiiight) all complained about the stance and they went "Fine, they hate it so much, removed" and we got nothing to replace it with. "Damage output standpoint" yeah as for more tanking output rather than crying about FFLogs all the time.

I don't even know what tanks want to do anymore besides out DPS MNK and BLM these days it seems. Yes, damage is the only thing that matters after a certain point so why not ask for SOMETHING ELSE? Oh wait no you'll master it and go right back to needing more damage.

So yeah, Kill off the OT position already, let those that want more damage bring the 5th DPS they always actually wanted to do since Heavensward. Besides, how many upper half of the bell curve raiders actually try to salvage it if the MT goes down? Just speeds everything up. Do it Square.

We already have single tanks in alliance raids, whats your point?
And who say tanks want to outdps DPS jobs?

And YES damage is what we all care about, we literally are buying three times more expensive materia to buy 2-3% damage advantage, and barely anyone is investing in tenacity.

The difference in DPS contribution for tanks in both expansion is big enough to notice it, basically tanks are doing 15-18% less than they used to. The difference is even bigger if we shew off tanks who used tank stance instead of offensive stance. Warrior in 4.5 was doing massive damage in offensive stance in dungeons to the point where dps were not needed much, its all now gone.

[Risvertasashi]

And who say tanks want to outdps DPS jobs?

-snip-

The difference in DPS contribution for tanks in both expansion is big enough to notice it, basically tanks are doing 15-18% less than they used to. The difference is even bigger if we shew off tanks who used tank stance instead of offensive stance. Warrior in 4.5 was doing massive damage in offensive stance in dungeons to the point where dps were not needed much, its all now gone.

To answer your first question: Apparently, you are saying that.

Have you actually looked at AOE potencies?

Healers and tanks are very close what DPS can do. Some of the potencies are even exactly the same; the difference being that DPS jobs may get some oGCDs or special procs that can put them a little above what tanks and healers can do.

If you want to talk dungeons in particular - In the 90th percentile, tanks are doing very well right now.

[Xtrasweettea]

To answer your first question: Apparently, you are saying that.

Have you actually looked at AOE potencies?

Healers and tanks are very close what DPS can do. Some of the potencies are even exactly the same; the difference being that DPS jobs may get some oGCDs or special procs that can put them a little above what tanks and healers can do.

In fact, tanks do out DPS a good chunk of DPS jobs in dungeons. In the 90th percentile, tanks do very well, even beating out some DPS jobs.

Unless I am reading this chart wrong, it looks like tanks only out damage each other, SCH, and AST. GNB and WHM seem to be fighting for the top spot between Tanks and Healers. Maybe you or someone could provide me the correct instructions on how to interpret the chart.

[BarretOblivion]

To answer your first question: Apparently, you are saying that.

Have you actually looked at AOE potencies?

Healers and tanks are very close what DPS can do. Some of the potencies are even exactly the same; the difference being that DPS jobs may get some oGCDs or special procs that can put them a little above what tanks and healers can do.

If you want to talk dungeons in particular - In the 90th percentile, tanks are doing very well right now.

Noooobody cares about dungeons. Nobody cares about AoE. We have been talking about raiding, why are you trying to change the conversation?