Reasonable buff to war

[millktea]

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

DPS isn't everything when it comes to balance. Until you make every single skill the exact same, these tanks will not be balanced.

warrior is at a disadvantage due to having to apply eye as well as IR being a complete burden. this ability is so skill speed and ping dependant and you pray that your cd animations or the Inner Release animation itself doesn't screw you over. the three tanks are consistent dps, while warrior's burst is too high. this means that the better rDPS is, the worst their personal dps is. gun can use all party buffs, pld doesnt care, war can only use rdm/mnk/nin and those three are mostly dead and drk needs a nin. imbalanced.

Paladin's clemency and Equilibrium are the same potency. However, equilibrium is 60s and clemency you can not only spam it 5 times, but it gets buffed by 50% at 68. Clemency is level 58. Warrior's equilibrium is 58, but it cannot be buffed by ToB until level 78, which is only 10s and can the heal can only be used ONCE. Flash is not available until level 78, and its conditionally tied to another player as well as being dependent on damage (which makes it poor with it being only 6s)

warrior has no "self-healing" at 50. it's self-healing is abysmal at 70. warrior is a SLOWBOYE, and making something so tight a window as 6s or 10s (NF/IR) is inconsiderate.

raw intuition is at all times inferior. its legit just a cd for a "oh snap, i messed up i dont have a cd" moment. camo is too good.

the tanks were more balanced in stormblood. the problem was that dark knight was absolutely inferior to the other two and bringing one was a guaranteed rDPS loss no matter what.

it didn't get anything in Shadowbringers. It lost a significant amount in 4.2 Stormblood and they got nothing in return. Flash is the ONLY thing warrior got, but this isnt new either as its just a trash tier bloodbath to give back what SC and IB had prior. Paladin got *everything*: a gapcloser, an aoe magic attack, a combo finisher, more dps, Req. buff. all unique animations. Gunbreaker is a whole new tank, so it got all those resources that warrior (and dark knight) should've got, but didnt. Warrior was completely ignored.

Dark Knight doesn't even have its own pure unique burst as it just burrowed warrior's "inner release", which NO ONE WANTED. and it has fray. ok. cool. Dark doesnt even get its second hit in its aoe combo until like 74. sad.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I mean Storm's eye works the same as it has since SB as does IR after people cried about old IR being too difficult. It's on you to press IR at the correct time, not ping, it's like hitting fof too early, I miss Goring Blade under the buff, that's player error. You only need to hit a certain amount of SkS, and beside since WAR's the odd tank out, instead of melding DH you can meld SkS to reach the correct tier. Also worth noting, with the increase in time between GCD for combos to sat alive, you have time to weave IR window and refresh eye, giving more freedom than before tbh.
So Clemency at 58 you can get 2 off, then at 68 5 off, and 78 buffed and insta-cast, buuuuuuut it cost both mp and it is at the cost of damage, WAR's equilibrium cost nothing, it's free, it uses no resource, unless you count time, but PLD needs time to build it's mana back up too.

As for PLD getting new stuff, a gap closer is one of the most sought after abilities requested by paladins, all tanks now have access to Arm's Length. PLD's AoE was spin to win, and flash once in a blue moon, now they brought all AoEs in line via combos, but also added an AoE variation to reflect PLDs single target rotation. As for req buff, the major buff is the insta cast, as you couldn't block while casting, and made movements a pain in the ass during req in certain fights, so basically QoL, and then the buff of 50% increase in magic damage potency and healing potency from 20%. Although, only really noticed HS doing more damage than SB variation at about i450-ish, with the tank damage formula change, granted HS did lose 20 potency moving into ShB.

WAR got new interactions with infuriate, a short defensve CD in RI, Nascent Flash as an answer to PLD having a monopoly on OT skills, and an AoE combo finisher, you did get some new stuff for WAR, saying it was ignored is just hyperbole at best.

I disagree with your sentiment of GNB " so it got all those resources that warrior (and dark knight) should've got, but didnt." that's very much a childish view, as WAR had a more naturally evolution of it's pre-existing skills, which GNB couldn't really hinder in it's creation.

[ForteNightshade]

I mean Storm's eye works the same as it has since SB as does IR after people cried about old IR being too difficult. It's on you to press IR at the correct time, not ping, it's like hitting fof too early, I miss Goring Blade under the buff, that's player error. You only need to hit a certain amount of SkS, and beside since WAR's the odd tank out, instead of melding DH you can meld SkS to reach the correct tier. Also worth noting, with the increase in time between GCD for combos to sat alive, you have time to weave IR window and refresh eye, giving more freedom than before tbh.

These are not comparable. Losing a Crit/Dh Fell Cleave is a significantly larger damage loss than missing Goring Blade under Fight or Flight. And while it typically is a timing issue on the player, no other tank is punished quite as severely because all of Warrior's damage is baked into a single button. Furthermore, Warrior is the only tank that outright must allow its buff to fall off in the opener otherwise it's actually a damage loss. This repeats in any instance where you'll gain a Fell Cleave in a pot/burst window. As for melding Skill Speed, this impacts the other tanks unless you only play Warrior—leaving you with two options: obtaining a separate set just for Warrior or rolling an inferior build.

WAR got new interactions with infuriate, a short defensve CD in RI, Nascent Flash as an answer to PLD having a monopoly on OT skills, and an AoE combo finisher, you did get some new stuff for WAR, saying it was ignored is just hyperbole at best.

That interaction with Infuriate is really clunky; forcing you to throw Inner Chaos out at specific points since you need to deplete charges otherwise you risk overcapping. This is only due to the fact IC replaces Fell Cleave, thus you can't simply hold an IC until after you finish your IR window. Dark Knight now has literally the same ability yet lacks this problem. Inner Chaos should be a separate button, especially seeing Warrior's hotbars are downright barren now. Nascent Flash doesn't come close to Paladin's OT utility, and lags significantly beside Intervention, TBN and Heart of Stone. Who cares about an AoE combo finisher when literally every tank got that?

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

These are not comparable. Losing a Crit/Dh Fell Cleave is a significantly larger damage loss than missing Goring Blade under Fight or Flight. And while it typically is a timing issue on the player, no other tank is punished quite as severely because all of Warrior's damage is baked into a single button. Furthermore, Warrior is the only tank that outright must allow its buff to fall off in the opener otherwise it's actually a damage loss. This repeats in any instance where you'll gain a Fell Cleave in a pot/burst window. As for melding Skill Speed, this impacts the other tanks unless you only play Warrior—leaving you with two options: obtaining a separate set just for Warrior or rolling an inferior build.

No s*** it's a bigger loss of damage, but yes they are comparable, you screw up the timings, you lose damage, that's a players fault not the games fault, you changed it to damage loss comparison, I only compared using another skill I'm more familiar with as a comparision, which, it's on the player
.
And I don't bother much with WAR because 3 out of 4 tanks can share the same gear and melds, cba wasting time and effort on the odd tank out because of IR.

If you gain potency letting SE drop for a few seconds, then it's not that much of a big deal, since you're gonna re-apply it afterwards anyways, like some of the optimised PLD rotations actually let goring drop intentionally, or delay it's reapplication for rotational alignments with fights. Same thing here, you let damage drop to gain more damage.

That interaction with Infuriate is really clunky; forcing you to throw Inner Chaos out at specific points since you need to deplete charges otherwise you risk overcapping. This is only due to the fact IC replaces Fell Cleave, thus you can't simply hold an IC until after you finish your IR window. Dark Knight now has literally the same ability yet lacks this problem. Inner Chaos should be a separate button, especially seeing Warrior's hotbars are downright barren now. Nascent Flash doesn't come close to Paladin's OT utility, and lags significantly beside Intervention, TBN and Heart of Stone. Who cares about an AoE combo finisher when literally every tank got that?

I mean, just don't use infuriate when you're in IR or if you will overcap, kinda simple if you play it long enough you'll get used to it, again that's on the player's skill. NF does and it doesn't compare against Intervention, if PLD buffs Intervention then yea, NF is behind, but if a PLD is just throwing it out to not overcap gauge, then NF comes out ahead because the heal element, as both are base 10% DR.

The chap complains about getting nothing new, so I pointed out AoE combo finisher, which is in fact new, but not good enough because everyone gets one. I mean they could always take it away if you're not happy with it. But to disregard the fact they got new skills and abilities, as got nothing, is just yet another disgusting display of entitlement tbh.

[millktea]

I mean Storm's eye...

pld shouldn't have a gapcloser with a ranged magic attack that is instant cast. clemency should be the same as equilbrium.

one shouldnt need to meld just to play their job. synced down, those melds are lost. SE's focus was "to have jobs work at a low level". eye was a problem beforehand too, it always existed. none of the tanks should even be able to meld direct hit

nothing i said is "something to do with a child" or "immaturity". wanting to get the same amount of attention and care is also not childish. War did not naturally evolve, it's quite the opposite: it devolved. it evolved at the start of SB and it was stripped away in 4.2 and it never recovered.

the only thing that "evolved" was overpower's aoe into a combo refreshing SE. 10s isnt enough as you want at least 25 to 30s to go into IR. even more so with IC existing. spamming MT 3x and delaying IR about 6 gcds is ridiculous. this was an issue with drg. why did they make this mistake again?

IC is not a new interaction. its the same concept. its just a harder hitting fell cleave. you play it the same way you did previously: you pop it, you get gauge, you get an attack. its even the same button.


warrior got Chaotic Cyclone. this is steel cyclone that was replaced with the loss of dual tank stance. the animation is the same. the icon is the same. Changing FC into IC with infuriate is still FC x2 with DHC. it is the same animation as Inner Beast. the EXACT same. adding upheaval effects doesnt make it different. Tempest is a pvp skill refurbished/repurposed. its the same name and the same animation. Flash is bb and it is the only new "thing" war got. compared to the other tanks, this is nothing. it lost too much, so even if just flash alone was a gain, it isnt noteworthy as it lost its healing from SC,IB and buffed in IR. which was more balanced with pld's clemency (as you had to give up dps).

you can disbelieve the gnb sentiment, but it is a fact. it doesnt matter if its new. we didnt need a new tank. we needed DARK to be fixed. they had 2 years to adjust that evolution from 4.0. but they decided not to. they kept the bandaid and then put IC in to try to balance the lack of damage output outside of IR, and its not enough. its not a hyperpole as its very literal and its not an exaggeration.

the job is mediocre and behind the other tanks. if you actually played warrior, legitimately knew the ins and outs, youd know warrior got nothing.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

More nonsense and hyperbole...

First off, using HS as a reason for PLD shouldn't gain a gap closer is pathetic. HS / HC is only instacast if you req beforehand which itself is not ranged. All throughout SB there was a plethora of fights where knockbacks occurred, as this was an overused design, where tempered will on a 3 minute CD was not sufficient, but WAR and DRK had gap closers which were a fraction of the recast time, and allowed to negate (timed correctly) or lessen the uptime lost, which PLD could not. This, and TW being replaced with Arm's Length in the tank role action is more than enough justification for PLD gaining a gap closer. (Yes DRK had to use Plunge on CD, but could hold a couple seconds if a pushback wasn't far off).

I mean sometimes you have to meld to reach SkS tiers to make a job playable for some, and outside of that no you don't have to specifically meld to play a job, but it does help. If none of the tanks should meld DH okay remove the DH effect from IR, prevent DH affecting all damage dealt by tanks AND healers then. Thing is DH scales pretty well on tanks, and since it scales so well, many will want to meld it. You don't like it don't meld it, plenty other people do and will meld it.

Skipping half your we didn't get anything entitlement rant, but you keep saying WAR didn't get anything new, did WAR have Inner Chaos, Chaotic Cyclone, Nascent Flash, Mythril Tempest as they currently exist before 5.0? hmmm, nope, guess what that means....wait for it...you got something new...wow isn't it amazing!!!

Again with the GNB crap, so it's strictly subjective as to whether we needed a new tank or not in your eyes, but the thing is, many people are happy they added GNB, and yes having a new tank was needed to break up how stale it was for some, look at the healers reaction to not getting a new healer in 5.0, that would have been the same response from a lot of tanks.

DRK did need reworked, and it's a mixed bag, which some people like it, others don't, can't keep everyone happy.

Tbh, WAR has the best burst damage and the best personal mitigation suite out of all the tanks, so it's not behind the tanks in those regards, it's more balanced finally after all these years. Just get a better kill time. The job itself isn't mediocre it's just boring compared to the other tanks.

[Izsha]

a bunch of objectively wrong or hyperbolic stuff

There is so much wrong with this post. IR is very ping friendly and does not jeed hardly any skill speed to pull off. This is literally the 1st pist i have seen complaining about IR and ping in the same sentence. You are obviously having some trouble with this skill, and 9x out of 10 this happens because people dont know you should wait to hit the button until the latter part of your gcd CD. Thats on you. The only time i miss a FC in IR is because i screw up. You can do it with darn near zero skill speed if you do it properly.

Plds 50% stronger spammable heal comes by spamming heals instead of 50% boosted spell windows. The only time this is practical is while soloing which this game is not designed for. Sacrificing MASSIVE amounts of damage to heal does not put war behind. It puts pld behind because that is a terrible choice and only viable as a last ditch effort to an already boned run. Wars heal in the other hand costs zero dps, is ogcd, and can be buffed without hurting dps even further. I use equil in every fight all the time. Plds use ckemency at best during down time or in a pinch to proc their aoe party shield and still loose dps to do even that. And no self healing? I heal for roughly 50k per use of nascent and 25k to my target in raids. In dungeons i full heal and then some with it.

Raw int is 'inferior'? Its identical to plds 20% but costs no resource. Guns is 15% and has a itty bitty shield. Drks is better, but has some risk. The only reason raw isnt used as much is not because its inferior, its because nascent is so much more powerful in most situations.

The tanks were more balanced in stormblood? What in the...holy crap. When dek had zero aoe mit. When running without a pld was a stupid idea because of the immense support it had. When drk was inferior to both pld and war. In support, damage, and personal mitigation until the very end through many, many rounds of buffs while pld got many rounds of nerfs? When they did an entire war rework because it wasnt working quite right and let drk simmer for years? Tanks are chrrently more balanced in dps than ever before and thats with an additional tank to balance. They are are MUCH closer in the support side than ever before as all have aoe mit and single target support skills. They are all closer in mitigation as they have been homogenized heavily in personal mit skills. They are objectively more balanced now than in any point in history. Practically everything in your post is objectively wrong or hyperbole.