Reasonable buff to war

[Satarn]

Complexity? Stance dancing? Did we play the same game? No one really stance danced outside of prog, and even then it was as simple as just waiting until you IB'd for any mechanic. The most complex thing was figuring out which opener to use to get another IR before a certain phase change.

This tbh. WAR didn't really "stance dance" any more than other tanks(or at least DRK, bc on PLD death was almost a preferable option to losing 2 gcds on Shield Oath).

I think removing the old stance mechanic was a stupid idea, because those "training wheels" allowed for more intense active mitigation requirements when aiming for more rDPS(also removing aggro instead of adding depth to it was lazy af), but the "stance dancing" was pretty much a myth.

The biggest difference between (post 4.2)SB and SHB WAR is swapping a bunch of downtime FCs into directcrit ICs and with that making crit/dh buffs(and with them gauge management) even less relevant, but that's really just doubling down on an effect that a lot of people have praised to havens in IR.

[BarretOblivion]

Complexity? Stance dancing? Did we play the same game? No one really stance danced outside of prog, and even then it was as simple as just waiting until you IB'd for any mechanic. The most complex thing was figuring out which opener to use to get another IR before a certain phase change.

Yes, it was imperative for prog and first few clears, after groups finally got to farm they wouldn't stance dance at all. Most would use WAR over other tanks because of its abliity to stance dance with no penalties, this was also essential if you wanted to make prog in Ultimate.

[millktea]

Complexity? Stance dancing? Did we play the same game? No one really stance ...

Yes, they did. Raid isnt everything. it doesnt matter if the MAX DPS is never swapping, the point is that it EXISTED.

It was "more complex" whether eye or some such was worth even putting up. without stance dancing, warrior lost a lot of it's complexity, REGARDLESS if you did not want to be in it for raid/max dps. it's other stance was still relevent/valid as equilibrium and unchained were tied to it, meaning you'd use both for the pull. with "defiance" gone, we can see how "empty" warrior actually is and it's lack of growth after it's 4.2 regression. War was mostly fine in 4.1, but due to player's lack of skill, this was changed. SE had two years to rework *that* rotation. they didnt. then, to be "clever", they took what was lost from the duality, and "pretended" that your new traits and skills were new things.

the complexity of the opener was the same 99% of the time. one of the ONLY few times where this EVER changed was suzaku ex (and uwu).

At the start of a trash pull in a dungeon, to be able to unchained + IR with a cyclone, trans between gcd into decimate absolutely made warrior more enjoyable. This is also true for a particular raid opener (non-nin) where you could unchained + eye + equilibrium + IB > trans into deliver FC. It's duality did have a small taste of convoluted quality, but that did not mean that the difficult was *that* high. the issue is that someone who doesn't know HOW to war, does too much damage.

By taking away Defiance's Inner Beast, Unchained, Cyclone enmity, eqilibrium heal/enmity, it loses a lot of it's toolkit and desirability . Warrior lost a detrimental amount of self-healing. equilibrium and tob arent enough, nascent is tied to a body and even then it is NOT ENOUGH. warrior could self heal at 70. this is gone at 80.

storm's eye was still problematic in SB. IR being only 10s with sks and ping dependency existed before ShB, it's just now it is excruciatingly obvious.

and war's dps in ShB IS bad as based on war's toolkit compared to the rest, it's dps is too low. you guys need to use your actual brain here. until the tanks have the EXACT same defensive toolkit as well as their DPS, they will never be balanced. PLD has a massive monopoly on raid mitigation. warrior has nowhere near that. SE legitimately made a pathetic attempt to try to make war ot valid, to play this bs game of "your tank doesnt matter", only it does matter. every major mechanic in raid hinders warrior. If they wanted to play this BS, then the tanks need to play exactly the same. EXACTLY.

dark needs to be fixed, but this isn't a dark thread. it's actually PLD that's to blame here, not war (and gunbreaker as well). we didn't need a new tank. we needed dark knight to be fixed. that meant at least to have LD adjusted and for it to be given a party mitigation CD.

[Shurrikhan]

WAR wasn’t fine in SB but there was just enough complexity in their stance dancing to keep them middle interesting. They lost that and gained nothing in ShB that’s the issue.

I mean, it would have been nice if stance dancing was a thing. It certainly had a lot of potential to become something of interest in fights that would both require high mitigation and high damage output from tanks.

But, those haven't really existed. There's no damage a tank can deal that can't just be dealt by someone else, and very, very few moments by which the added healer damage from costly tank mitigation could outweigh the tank damage lost. It'd require a whole tier higher of difficulty, or some obviously punishing mechanic like Deep Damage (closest analogs being Supplication's Max HP reduction or some measure of Vulnerability) when taking critical damage at all.

Alas, it was just a brief period of training wheels. It held virtually no spot in optimization.

[Saber44]

Inner chaos and inner cyclone should have their old abilities tied to them. Inner Chaos with 20% dog reduction and heal, Inner Cyclone with the heal per hit. Vengeance gets a slight damage boost and duration is 15 seconds.
Tanks 30% dig reduction skills should all be 15 seconds,and they should do different things also. DRK, mana regen per hit, 200 mp. PLD path gauge regen per hit and GNB 10% shield.

But how would you balance it?

[Saber44]

The thing I hate is they got rid of a lot of their self sustain

[NyneSwordz]

Alright, see you around buddy.

Yeah. Ill be back tho. Even if my main class isn't to my liking, i really like the msq, maybe just resub every 3 or 4 months and play ffxiv like a singleplayer game. Ffxiv is great that way = )

[NyneSwordz]

To be fair, they don't sound like they're addressing any complaints/issues about Tanks in 5.1.

I'm probably dropping tanking this expansion.

Yeah they haven't touched tanks since release... its been over 3 months. And not even a "hey darks got x issues we're aware of it" or "hey wars got some clunkiness to it we'll take a look." Nothing. Nada.

The quickest thing they acted on was gnb sound effects and they made a change for the worse. Radio silence since then on that front too.

I'm kinda tired waiting on liveletter after liveletter hoping for some bit of news to suggest the issues i care about are being worked on, or at least acknowledged.

I really do appreciate all the other stuff they're working on like 24man content and crafter overhaul. But couldn't they at least address each of the combat jobs individually in the 5.1 live letter? Like 10 to 15 seconds for each job.

We hear job X players don't like this or that. We are investigating the issue. Something like that. Ninja, Sam and Sumn were already adjusted last patch, and not to say that their previewed changes for 5.1 isn't deserved, it is, but couldn't they have spent a minute or two talking about the 4 tank jobs?

And what about pvp? New map isn't coming out untio 5.15, but couldn't they preview some of the actions now? Doesn't matter how great the new frontline map is if the jobs are not fun to play in frontlines. A hem... warrior is not fun in frontlines... mostly because of nascent flash party requirement. At least allow cross alliance targeting with it. I don't enjoy having a dead action. Stormspath is nearly a dead action in frontlines too. Nothing. No real news on actions pvp or pve at all. I would have prioritized talking about pvp action adjustments over preview of the new map.

Well... anyway... that's enough belly aching from me...

[BarretOblivion]

Yeah they haven't touched tanks since release... its been over 3 months. And not even a "hey darks got x issues we're aware of it" or "hey wars got some clunkiness to it we'll take a look." Nothing. Nada.

The quickest thing they acted on was gnb sound effects and they made a change for the worse. Radio silence since then on that front too.

I'm kinda tired waiting on liveletter after liveletter hoping for some bit of news to suggest the issues i care about are being worked on, or at least acknowledged.

I really do appreciate all the other stuff they're working on like 24man content and crafter overhaul. But couldn't they at least address each of the combat jobs individually in the 5.1 live letter? Like 10 to 15 seconds for each job.

We hear job X players don't like this or that. We are investigating the issue. Something like that. Ninja, Sam and Sumn were already adjusted last patch, and not to say that their previewed changes for 5.1 isn't deserved, it is, but couldn't they have spent a minute or two talking about the 4 tank jobs?

And what about pvp? New map isn't coming out untio 5.15, but couldn't they preview some of the actions now? Doesn't matter how great the new frontline map is if the jobs are not fun to play in frontlines. A hem... warrior is not fun in frontlines... mostly because of nascent flash party requirement. At least allow cross alliance targeting with it. I don't enjoy having a dead action. Stormspath is nearly a dead action in frontlines too. Nothing. No real news on actions pvp or pve at all. I would have prioritized talking about pvp action adjustments over preview of the new map.

Well... anyway... that's enough belly aching from me...

The only thing they spoke about was tanks needing some mitigation tweaks... and we got 5 extra seconds on our 30% mitigations... Wooooooow. Yeah it helps in dungeons... and that's about it. Raiding, by the time the mitigation runs out you should already be healed by healers, but I guess its a minor convience if I am being generous. Else, they stated they don't want to touch tanks... aaaaand that mindset is going to suprise them when tank numbers drop further.

[whiskeybravo]

Tanks went through a pretty massive overhaul for the xpac, and they obviously had other jobs to work on that didn't get done in time. "Screw those other jobs and work on tanks!" is basically how some of these comments come off.

If all anyone can come up with is little nitpicks here and there then they've done a fairly decent job IMO. Everyone wants a little more seasoning, a little extra sauce, but the dish is perfectly edible as prepared. Chill.