Eden Savage Loot

[ForteNightshade]

-.- any need for childish remarks like this honestly

Stop moving the goal post then. This was now the third time you've changed your prior argument because I proved it wrong.

No it was elitist

I mean, you can say the sky is purple. That doesn't make it purple. There is nothing elitist about saying you need to be good enough to clear with below recommended gear. You just took offense to it.

Your statement was wrong sorry it was.

Once again, the water isn't red just because you keep saying it is.

No Implement the system that was spoken about earlier which I am sure you read about - which basically reads a party's make up and then only uses that loot for the classes making the party up - then implement a 1 item per person limitation and my maths is correct I know my maths but let me break it down for you so that you can see where Im coming from k doll ^^

So in a party there are 2 tanks - 2 healers - and 4 DPS so the tanks would have 1 chest which would give them a 50/50 Same for the healers another 50/50 so DPS so 4 DPS if there was 1 chest that would be 25% chance you are correct there however there is 2 chests and there is also a 1 loot per person - so the DPS who has the first item can not get the 2nd - so technically speaking the 1st chance is a 25% chance - the second for the remaining DPS is 33% R however 50% of the DPS will get an item

You're moving the goal post again. Nowhere did you specify this one roll per person restriction. Ironically, you ignored the example I provided: two Maiming pieces dropped. With the purposed addendum, now the DRG can't roll on both yet no one else wants the second piece. Furthermore, this doesn't account for Striking gear which two melee DPS share and accessories which has multiple overlap. I'll assume your next response will be to abruptly add two Maiming pieces can't drop because like with several arguments now, you keep throwing things on a wall until something sticks.

On top of the above, now you've reintroduced the possible junk drops where people already have the gear that dropped, thus it hits the floor.

In short, your math is still wrong unless they fix the overlap Ninja has with the Physical Range and Dragoon with Monk and Samurai. And even should they do so... that doesn't address the aforementioned duplicate drop potential. If you also want that prevented, you've now effectively guaranteed a whole static can gear up much faster since you're guaranteed never to see duplicate item drops and you've doubled the loot table for every floor except the first.

I am not confusing my arguments at all - also who said anything about my ability to participate in savage - I said if the loot system were tweaked so that Need / Greed were implemented it would be far more appealing to people due to the fact they could gear their main before someone gears their 3rd or 4th alt - which it in my opinion would

You literally said "This would allow more people to participate." I didn't interpret that as you directly but the general you because it implies people couldn't participate in Savage without gear... from Savage. See why your arguments are confused? You've contradicted yourself in the same post, doll. ^^

[HyoMinPark]

no it isn't DPS would have a 1 in 4 chance if it were 1 chest if we were using the system you suggested - by increasing DPS chest to 2 DPS would have a 50% chance - especially if we limited the number of loot DPS could gain - there are 4 DPS 50% of them would have an item

I’ll use my static comp as an example—PLD/WAR, WHM/SCH, SAM/NIN/DNC/BLM

Tanks: 50% chance of winning their loot provided the drop is BiS
Healers: 50% of winning their loot provided the drop is BiS

It’s important to consider if these drops end up being BiS or not. If the tank gloves, for example, aren’t BiS, that makes this week tank drop from the second floor useless. Likewise, if the healer pants aren’t BiS, they are worthless. So you actually had 0 drops instead of the 2.


Now for the DPS:

First coffer—25% chance for any DPS to get an applicable piece of gear (Slaying, Scouting, Aiming, Casting) in all but the first floor (33% chance in the first floor since Slaying accessories are shared by all melee DPS).
Second coffer—33% chance provided this system has no duplicates to drop one of the 3 remaining pieces (66% chance on the first floor for accessories).

100% chance to win the DPS drops since they’re locked to role (50% chance to win for Slaying accessories with a double melee comp like mine)—provided that the drop is BiS.

It’s very important that you consider if the drop is BiS or not. A non-BiS drop dropping from a floor is the same as basically getting nothing. You may take it for an upgrade, but it’s not the piece that you “need” and it will be replaced. None of this is considering useful loot probability based off of the items that drop in a single floor and whether or not they’re actually BiS for a job, so your statistical chance of getting a BiS piece of gear is far lower than 50%.


It’s not a straight 50% drop rate for individual DPS coffers because there are 5 different kinds of DPS gear (4 for the accessories). Saying that half of the DPS jobs theoretically get a drop =/= 50% chance; individual chances are 25% for the left side, 33% for the accessories. And this is only the case if the drops were guaranteed to be useful/be BiS—but not all Savage drops are BiS.

You’re confusing the drop chance of applicable gear with “half the DPS get drops”. They are not the same thing.


I’ll consider replying to the wall-of-text post later, but just going to address this:

Took you a long time

I apologize if I am not replying fast enough for you. I had to shower and get ready to head to school for class. So, my apologies that I had more important things to do.

[Mavrias]

LOL i havent moved the goal post and your remarks are childish- and you have not proven me wrong but feel free to think you have I mean if that is what you need - my argument is still the EXACT same - my argument is this - This system is amazing for people who are in statics - but very unfriendly to people who Pug - it also allowes people to gear multiple classes while some struggle to gear their main class - I think this needs to be evened out by implementing a need / greed system - That is my argument that has REMAINED the exact same





You were being elitist





I have said a number of times it was suggested by one of the other people - and I said it was a good idea and that I agreed with it - like I agreed with the need / greed - and implementing a system that read the partys make up - did you not read their comments.






My maths is not wrong you just haven't paid any attention to what people have suggested be implemented there has already a solution to this been thought up . . .again if you I must explain to you the following 2 tanks 1 chest = 50% 2 healers - 1 chest = 50% 4 DPS 2 chests = 50% (DPS chance are 25% and 33R%) Also just an FYI most statics were geared up very quickly Im generally talking about a system that is more friendly to pugs, and this I believe is it.




I haven't contradicted myself - also can I just explain when I have said PEOPLE I have meant PEOPLE (i generally say people for more than 1 person) if I am talking to 1 person I say You, I assumed everyone did the same. Also If people do not need savage gear to do savage please explain why you insist people roll for savage gear for their alts and allow it to take priority over someone who is rolling for their main, my opinion is a need and greed system would be better - and it would be. And I also believe I said people would find it more appealing if the loot system was more structured - I believe they would. Would you be more likely to enter something knowing its just you and a few others - or would you go in to something happy if it was you and like hundreds of others competing for stuff - Personally I would prefer the first thats why I suggested structuring the loot (well someone else suggested how) and implementing a need greed and 1 item per person sort of thing, people will be more attracted to things when they have higher chances of getting items and that's just a general fact of life

Someone rolling for their alt isnt taking priority over you. They need it for a class, you need it for a class. You both roll need, so you have equal priority. You just have to out roll them. Honestly this whole thread has primarily been you arguing to not have to compete with others for rolls. If you want that then honestly the best thing for you to do would be to make a lootmaster party.

[ForteNightshade]

LOL i havent moved the goal post and your remarks are childish- and you have not proven me wrong but feel free to think you have I mean if that is what you need - my argument is still the EXACT same - my argument is this - This system is amazing for people who are in statics - but very unfriendly to people who Pug - it also allowes people to gear multiple classes while some struggle to gear their main class - I think this needs to be evened out by implementing a need / greed system - That is my argument that has REMAINED the exact same

And three different people now in the last two pages have all pointed out how your argument is wrong yet you making different addendum to it. Earlier you cited the Primal weapons and accessories, which use the old system. You never once suggested that be changed to a 1/1/2 loot drop. You simply cited the Primals and said nothing else otherwise. Furthermore, pointing out how you keep changing your arguments is not childish. Don't let the snark attached? Stop moving the goal post or...

You were being elitist

No the water is not red - I never said it was - I said your statement was wrong and it was sorry if that upset you

Insisting you're right because you say so. Please explain how saying you have to be good enough to clear Savage while undergeared is in any way elitist? Are you really going to cling to this "it's not what you said but how you said it?!" nonsense? And you want to talk about childish...

I have said a number of times it was suggested by one of the other people - and I said it was a good idea and that I agreed with it - like I agreed with the need / greed - and implementing a system that read the partys make up - did you not read their comments.

Great! Either quote them or reiterate the suggestion in your own posts when someone replies because nothing you've stated insinuated half the arguments you're now making. I shouldn't have to go back and comb through every post in the thread. Present the argument yourself/

My maths is not wrong you just haven't paid any attention to what people have suggested be implemented there has already a solution to this been thought up . . .again if you I must explain to you the following 2 tanks 1 chest = 50% 2 healers - 1 chest = 50% 4 DPS 2 chests = 50% (DPS chance are 25% and 33R%) Also just an FYI most statics were geared up very quickly Im generally talking about a system that is more friendly to pugs, and this I believe is it.

As stated... again. You're conflating two different things; two DPS drops compared to two useful DPS drops that can never be duplicated. The latter is an important distinction because if two Maiming pieces can drop (Head and Feet), then it isn't 50% by any metric. And yes, statics can clear quickly. Your solution will make that even faster because you're increasing the loot. Tanks and Healers often wait a few weeks before receiving gear since DPS matters more for prog. Your suggestion guarantees they get a coffer each week; possibly with no chance at a duplicate. Four people are getting gear, including weapons, bodies and legs instead of one—two if you happen to get lucky with the random weapon drop. For statics, you'll be done in less a month for everything but accessories.

None of this covers the tome upgrade items. Are we going to divvy those up based on role too? And gearing alts under your revised system forces you to do so on lesser geared jobs since the game won't drop anything unless that job's in the party.

I haven't contradicted myself - also can I just explain when I have said PEOPLE I have meant PEOPLE (i generally say people for more than 1 person) if I am talking to 1 person I say You, I assumed everyone did the same. Also If people do not need savage gear to do savage please explain why you insist people roll for savage gear for their alts and allow it to take priority over someone who is rolling for their main, my opinion is a need and greed system would be better - and it would be. And I also believe I said people would find it more appealing if the loot system was more structured - I believe they would. Would you be more likely to enter something knowing its just you and a few others - or would you go in to something happy if it was you and like hundreds of others competing for stuff - Personally I would prefer the first thats why I suggested structuring the loot (well someone else suggested how) and implementing a need greed and 1 item per person sort of thing, people will be more attracted to things when they have higher chances of getting items and that's just a general fact of life

... I don't know how many ways I can explain to you that wanting something is not the same as needing it. You don't need Savage gear for Savage since, you know, you have to be able to complete Savage to actually get drops from it. You want better gear. They are not the same thing. That person rolling for their alt jobs contributed to the clear just as much as you—possibly more depending on skill. Why should they be entitled to nothing because they happen to be gearing a second job while you'e still on your first? Furthermore, you know what will happen with your purposed system? People won't join PFs on their better geared mains, they'll join on weaker jobs so they can Need potential drops. If I want Ninja or Tank gear, I'll join a party as one of those jobs in i450 instead of my i470 Dragoon since doing so on the latter guarantees I can nothing.

[HyoMinPark]

Okay firstly you said about a system earlier being implemented to read the party's make up - this would stop useless drops at least the majority of them - also this would allow people to gear their alts if double drops did happen - No I am not confusing anything and the numbers you just gave I already gave and these numbers are based off of using the things you suggested. Yes it would not 100% eliminate double drops but then that would allow people to gear alt classes (which is what would keep statics happy) but also at the same time allow people to gear their mains as a priority

I was using a specific comp with drops limited to that comp in my example. It wasn’t taking into accounts drops that players don’t need—hence the values that I gave.

First DPS drop: 25% chance for each of the DPS. In my example, it was SAM/NIN/DNC/BLM—in the loot table I provided, the pieces that could drop were Slaying (SAM), Scouting (NIN), Aiming (DNC), and Casting (BLM). 4 possible piece types, 1 out of 4 chance that any given DPS would get an item—25%.

Second DPS drop: Assuming this system doesn’t allow for duplicates, it’s now a 33% chance for any of the other 3 DPS to get a piece of gear. So, if the first piece was for the BLM, 33% chance for a Slaying (SAM), Scouting (NIN), or Aiming (DNC) piece. 3 possible piece types, 1 out of 3 chance that any of the remaining DPS could get an item—33%. The values do not change.

2 DPS potentially getting a gear drop does not make this 50%. There is a probability that the item that drops for the BLM isn’t BiS, which would make it a worthless drop. There’s a probability that the second item that dropped isn’t BiS for the player it dropped for—let’s say the Scouting boots dropped; they aren’t BiS because they have skill speed on them (NINs hate SkS). Both DPS drops were worthless, so they actually didn’t get anything.

dont worry I was just wondering if you were alright

Oh, I’m quite fine. Just tired after a long day.

[Miminming]

Not everybody care into BiS that much though, some will be more than happier getting a higher iL non BiS equipment...

[HyoMinPark]

Not everybody care into BiS that much though, some will be more than happier getting a higher iL non BiS equipment...

And then there are the people that do care about BiS—so my point still stands.

[HyoMinPark]

You do know though that I gave these numbers and figures first on the previous page, all you have done is repeated back to me the numbers and figures and Reasoning I gave before which you do not need to I gave them I am very aware of them but thank you for demonstrating you can copy and repeat - and no again this was my reasoning using the system you mentioned about reading party make up - the first chest would be a 25% chance for a DPS and the second chest would be a 33R% chance for the DPS - now include the 1 loot per person and 50% of the DPS have been geared. which is the original point I made 50% of the tanks geared 50% of Healers geared and 50% of DPS geared. You are correct however in thinking with double drops this would be lowered however people could then move on from gearing their main classes to gearing an alt class. However my point is still correct as is my maths and it is a better system than we have now and they would have a higher chance to get an item and a useful item with this system as it is we have a 1 in 8 chance per item which is a much lower % than the system I have just said.

The minute that one of those DPS drops isn’t BiS is the minute your “50% of the DPS” value fails. I really cannot word this is any other way.

Your point is 50% chance that the DPS will be geared. That is incorrect if the drops that drop from the boss aren’t useful to them—which was a huge problem with the old system and why the coffers that can be turned into any item for any job are far more useful. Generic “Gloves Coffer” dropping that someone can turn into either main job BiS or alt job BiS is better than a pair of Maiming Gloves dropping that aren’t BiS and that no one wants.

Either way, the developers would never implement a system where 4 pieces of loot drop from each floor. They want people to keep running this content. They don’t want them gearing up within 4 weeks and then peacing out. And it has nothing to do with “they don’t care about people gearing main jobs”—it has everything to do with subscription money.

The math has already been done for the new system—it is mathematically better than the old system that was in place. Failure to acknowledge that doesn’t make it untrue.

also if 2 out of 4 is not 50% then please explain what it is maybe my maths is wrong but last time I checked 50% is a half and 2 is half of 4 ^^ but please explain your reasoning

I have. You just aren’t reading.

If the DPS items that drop are useless then no, 50% of the DPS have not been geared.

"No Implement the system that was spoken about earlier which I am sure you read about - which basically reads a party's make up and then only uses that loot for the classes making the party up - then implement a 1 item per person limitation and my maths is correct I know my maths but let me break it down for you so that you can see where Im coming from k doll ^^

Nope. Still incorrect as if the items that drop aren’t BiS, then 50% of the DPS haven’t been geared. And how about you not start the condescending names with me, “doll”. That doesn’t help you—it just makes you come off as having an attitude: something you’re quick to harp on others about. .

Not to mention—this prevents players from gearing alts. You can hate that as much as you want, but eventually players turn to gearing alt jobs once their main is geared. I know that completely invalidates your points, but it’s true.

So in a party there are 2 tanks - 2 healers - and 4 DPS so the tanks would have 1 chest which would give them a 50/50 Same for the healers another 50/50 so DPS so 4 DPS if there was 1 chest that would be 25% chance you are correct there however there is 2 chests and there is also a 1 loot per person - so the DPS who has the first item can not get the 2nd - so technically speaking the 1st chance is a 25% chance - the second for the remaining DPS is 33% R however 50% of the DPS will get an item"

Half of the tanks won’t be geared if the item that drops isn’t BiS.
Half of the healers won’t be geared if the item that drops isn’t BiS.
Half of the DPS won’t be geared if the items that drop aren’t BiS.

Please read. I know that you don’t want to acknowledge points that invalidate your argument, but you’re going to have to.

Was said by me before any of you even said it and yes my maths is still correct - 50% of tanks 50% of healers ad 50% of DPS geared as i said in the very beginning

Nope. Still wrong. See above.

I did explain my reasoning before all you seem to do is keep saying I am saying DPS have a 50% chance but as you can see thats not what I said

And that is literally what you said. Here, I’ll quote it for you.

no it isn't DPS would have a 1 in 4 chance if it were 1 chest if we were using the system you suggested - by increasing DPS chest to 2 DPS would have a 50% chance - especially if we limited the number of loot DPS could gain - there are 4 DPS 50% of them would have an item

And no, 50% of them would not have an item if the item that drops is worthless. Not all Savage pieces are BiS, and players that care about their gear aren’t going to roll on non-BiS pieces.


In the end, this thread is all about what you want—and you’re trying to disguise it as what you need. You don’t “need” any of this gear—you want it. But guess what? Other players want it, too; and your wants do not trump theirs. You are all equals when the loot drops, you all equally want it, so you all get to equally roll for it. We all win some, and we all lose some. So, personally, I think you should just deal with it and move on. As you said, you’re in no rush to actually gear your jobs.

This is my last response to you. I’m done wasting time in this thread.

[Mavrias]

Anyway guys I dont want to waste time arguing - you have your views - you have also been able to benefit greatly from this current system and geared a number of alt classes as you yourself admit - while others are still gearing their main, you clearly do not think a system that allows sharing things out and allows people to gear their main classes before you gear your alt classes is a better solution because you have already benefited from this system and doing what some would consider selfish.

My view is this the current system is not a friendly system to people who pug - there should be a need / greed system implemented and an algorithm which allows the system to read the party make up thus reducing the wasted drop issue we have had in the past. This would allow people to gear their main classes before alt classes, this system would just mean people who are gearing alt classes who have already geared their main classes would just have to wait a small amount of time which isnt much to ask of them as they have already geared their main class, which I think is a fair thing sorry to the people who have already geared their main and alt classes and disagree with allowing other people to gear their main class before their 3rd or 4th alt class.

The system is fine. The only reason someone got gear fpr their alt before you got gear for your main is because they ROLLED HIGHER than you and likely STARTED THIS TIER EARLIER than you.

[HyoMinPark]

The system is not fine sorry but it isnt - people should be able to gear their main class before others can gear their 3rd 4th or 5th alt class - also I have been doing E1S since it became available. . .I have managed to get . . . 3 items 1 drop. 2 were gotten with books ill soon be able to get the 3rd item with a book.

This is your opinion. Not a fact.

This is actually going to be my last post because there’s no point continuing this any further, but I’m going to defend myself a little bit here.

your attitude doesn't help you at all to be honest and you yourself have an attitude and have previously admitted to being snippy with me, and harp on about like how you harp on about my numbers and maths being wrong and my condescending attitude only because you do not like what I am suggesting because it would mean you could not gear your alt classes as quickly as you have - also no this does not prevent people from gearing their alts it just ensures people gear their mains first - also you seem to think my point becomes invalid it dose not - my point is 100% valid people should be able to gear their mains before alts thats my point

First of all, you really aren’t in any position to talk about attitude when you’ve been condescending to not just me, but to Mavrias, DrWho2010, and ForteNightshade in this thread. The only reason we respond in kind is because you’re giving us attitude first—the only reason I was ever snippy with you was because you started talking about what I wanted; what I thought. Perhaps you shouldn’t do that since you aren’t me? And because it’s irrelevant what I want and what I’m okay with? Bringing up a bunch of irrelevant fluff if probably a huge reason why your posts and arguments are so inconsistent.

If you don’t like others returning your attitude with attitude of their own, then all I can really say is don’t dish out what you can’t take. I’ve tried as hard as I can to be polite with you, but your tone has been nothing but confrontational with anyone who disagrees with you—and whenever they point out your own incorrect statements and contradictions, it gets worse because I guess you don’t like people pointing out the flaws in your arguments, or just opposing you in general. You say you aren’t here to fight, but that’s what you’re doing. It’s what you’ve been doing the last several pages.

Nice edit on saying you never called me “doll”, by they way; when I literally have it quoted that you did. Drop the condescension and maybe people won’t be condescending right back.


The developers will not implement your desired system of 4 drops with a special algorithm—they will likely stick with the coffer system, and it’s my opinion that Savage is better for it. The only things I would change are book costs for the belt, a trade down system for higher tier books, and dropping 2 weapon coffers in the final floor—because the random weapon drops have been quite useless in my experience: all weapons for jobs not present in the party, or for jobs that already have their weapons. I would even get behind a system where someone can only NEED one coffer—all their other rolls turn into GREED rolls. But I do not support your system because it is flawed.

Mathematically, it’s a fact that this system is better than the old system—this math was done when the system was announced back in the summer.

What I like and dislike is irrelevant. I don’t argue with my feelings. You are trying so hard to invalidate my points—but they are just as valid. It is 100% valid that you do not hold any more importance than someone else, even if you are gearing your main. Everyone in a PUG is equal regardless of what they want the gear for. They can all roll on the loot, and the highest roll wins.


You don’t need to quote me the post that I responded to and rebutted—most people that run Savage do so with a BiS in mind. The minute a piece drops that isn’t BiS, it’s useless. Which throws your “50% of the DPS are now geared” argument straight out the window. Since players don’t like getting useless drops, the developers sought to rectify this; hence, the coffer system. You don’t have to like it—but it’s the system we have, so you’ll have to deal with it if you continue to do this content.

If people simply want higher item level gear, then they can simply get the Tomestone gear. When the Nier raid releases in a few weeks, they’ll be able to get upgrade items for accessories and left side (minus the weapon) every week from it. Easy i470 gear. The fact of the matter is, is that most people run Savage to get a BiS. Gear that’s not BiS isn’t valuable.

Oh you misunderstand I am in no rush to gear my ALT classes that is correct - my main I would like geared

That’s not what you said previously in the thread:

I am in no rush to gear my classes

There was no specifications of main class versus alt classes.

you may believe it is because you have geared your main and you have geared alt classes as you have admitted

Actually, I haven’t. My alt classes are listed as healers in my static (we all have mains and secondaries listed on our loot sheet), and I have a grand total of 3 pieces for them after 10 weeks: head, gloves, and pants. BRD is only geared because it shares gear with DNC, which is the job I raid on (by that, MCH is also geared, albeit with an i430 weapon). How about you stop talking about what other people have or haven’t done? It makes you seem even more presumptuous than your comments about people rolling on gear they won’t use. You don’t know that.

I dont see an issue with you not gearing an alt class for maybe 2 weeks with loot drops and in them 2 weeks other people gearing their main jobs - you may think other people struggling to gear their main class while you gear what number alt class was it again 3, is a waste of time, but you have already geared your main and your alts your view is that of someone who has benefited greatly from the system and dose not want to lose the system they have greatly benefited from, even if it means fairness for others - thats fine call it what you want to hide what it really is.

I think this thread is a waste of time because you aren’t willing to see past your own narrow viewpoint. You aren’t willing to see the flaws in your arguments; you aren’t willing to have a discussion. You just want what you want, and who cares about what anyone else has to say.

Stop talking about what I’ve geared and haven’t geared. As I already explained above, my secondary jobs are actually healers, which still have quite a few pieces of i440 and normal mode gear still. You keep trying to paint me in a bad light—I’m in a static, my main is geared, BRD is geared because it shares gear with my main (which is literally the only reason it’s geared in the first place), my alts are geared (no, they aren’t, actually)—but it’s just making you look ridiculous.

PUGs are free-for-all environments. Everyone is an equal in a PUG; therefore, everyone can equally roll on the drops. No one is any more or less important—it doesn’t matter if someone still “needs” gear for their main and someone else doesn’t. They both want the gear, so they can both roll on it. If you want to dictate loot rules, set up your own Lootmaster Savage party with the rules clearly outlined. Don’t expect others to adhere to your standards. And, for the record, this has little to do with what I want and am okay with; my opinions on this doesn’t matter.