Eden Savage Loot

[ForteNightshade]

snip

To be fair, you have no greater "need" compared to anyone else. You want better gear. Why should you have priority because they happen to have more gear than you? The problem with the old system is you'd see countless pieces outright hit the fall because no one wanted them. Going nine weeks without even a chance at getting a Slaying accessory was a lot worse than losing rolls because at least I could have gotten something useful. This tier alone, we've had one weapon out of eight actually be useful.

The only real addendum I think should be changed is making it so you can only Need one piece per week. For example purposes, say you roll Need on the Belt, Ring and Earring coffers and win the Belt. Your subsequent rolls on the Ring and Earring become Greed; i.e. you can only win them if no one else rolls Need. This helps mitigate the RNG since you'll have a 1/5 chance if you lost both rolls. It mat not be your BiS but it's an upgrade for the time being.

[ForteNightshade]

I personally have not said I myself have a greater need - The class that uses the item for example a healing class has a greater need for the healing item than the summoner (for example) who has a levelled healer but doesn't use it. Im just saying that makes more sense and its a better system and would be easier for people to gear their main classes while also allowing people to gear their alt classes in other ways while people gear their main. Also you mention wasted drops - we have already discuss a solution for that which I agree would be an amazing solution - an algorithm that would read the party's make up and adjust loot to the classes in the party, that would be amazing in my opinion it at least ensures all classes in the party have a possibility to get a drop. I would also say 4 pieces of gear would be good - 1 Fending - 1 Healing - 2 DPS I mean its just a solution to this current system which doesn't work well for everyone yet works amazingly well for others

This supposed solution would allow everyone to gear even faster than the coffer system. They don't want to distribute loot based on role for that very reason. Bear in mind, this is current meant to last for nearly seven months. If even a pug tank could be almost BiS within four weeks or less... what incentive do they have keep playing outside a third party website SE wants to pretend doesn't keep their raid scene afloat?

[ForteNightshade]

No it would just allow people to gear their mains before gearing their alts, and make savage more accessible to everyone, as they would have better chances of gearing.

Savage has never been more accessible than it is now. You can go in and clear the first three fights with half i440 if you're good enough. Not having Savage gear pieces doesn't make the content inaccessible. It wouldn't be clearable without it if that were the case. And before you shout how gear makes it easier. Yes, that's why tomes exist. It's essentially free gear for people who need am extra push beyond the i450 stuff.

They do distribute loot this way in some things there is content that you can go in to and get drops for certain classes and them classes have the ability to Need on them - others have the ability to Greed on them it just insures people who play that class and need the gear get it.

No? The only content where you're guaranteed a piece based on your role is Leveling dungeons. Everything else is RNG.

Okay firstly I think this method would make savage more accessible to all players as it is a lot of players are not bothering with savage because of the loot system the likely hood is they wont get anything because they have to contend with every single person there, even though some of these players have already geared their mains. What I am suggesting is using a system SE has used in the past with a algorithm which reads the parties classes and then adjusts the loot to suit, and no people wouldn't be able to gear up in 4 weeks it would still depend on if they win the loot drop or not - take tanks for example if 1 FENDING item dropped - then both tanks - in a situation where both need it - would roll need and only 1 of them would get this item. Again its RNG dependant it all this system dose is stop people gearing immediately and then gearing their alts immediately after - it gives others a chance to gear their mains first. That is all this system dose there is a similar system in use, but with the algorithm which reads the parties classes this would be a good system - it would stop wasted drops - it would allow people who need to gear main jobs to gear main jobs first - it also allows people to gear their alt jobs (just after peoples main jobs are geared) and there is also a way in which to gear another alt job that is not in the party and thats by using the things it drops (books) I see no issue with this at all . . . it just means some people cant gear their alt classes as quickly as they have already done so while others struggle to gear their main class

Anecdotes offer nothing since I can just as easily claim more people are partaking in Savage because it's easier now. There's nothing to back that up though. Just like your claim.

Per your own example, you have a 50% chance of getting gear now because a tank piece is always guaranteed to drop. In a static setting, both tanks can get everything by week two. Additionally, you want four drops per floor. That literally doubles the loot table for every floor except E1S. How doesn't that make gearing go by significantly faster? Sure, if you're pugging you might have to roll against another tank but once again, that's 50%. Unless you have the worst luck imaginable, you'll win fairly quickly. They don't want the majority of people gearing up that quickly. Like I said above, if you want better gear, the whole idea of the tomestome system is essentially guaranteed upgrades.

[Mavrias]

Your opinion not a fact - So if all 470 is not needed why are people still NEEDING it for their alt classes if its not needed as you say



kind of sounds elitist



Okay let me Explain again - Shadowbringers Primal EX drop job based gear (FENDING - HEALING - CASTING - AIMING - STRIKING) - which only the jobs that use these items have the ability to roll NEED feel free to double check that if you need to - this is what I meant - Sorry but your statement is incorrect.





I have the same chances as everyone else 50 - 50 and the reason I said 4 drops is because then all roll chances are 50 - 50. Tanks and healers would have 1 drop chest - DPS would have 2 drop chests. . .everyone has a 50 - 50 chance of getting something. Also no it dose not double the loot table 3 items drop adding 1 more dose not double that doubling would be 6




They don't want people gearing up that quickly - YET some people have their main and an alt class if not 2 with all 470 gear. . . .thats very quickly. This system would just make sure that this wouldn't happen and pace everyone, instead of what has happened happening.

Also you are saying I should put up with tombstone gear thats 460 . . . so why cant the people who have managed to gear their main with 470 and their alt with 470 . . .or their 3rd alt class with 470 - why cant these people be satisfied with 460 on their alt classes like you are telling me I should be with my main. ????????

You're starting to sound foolish now. Its not elitist to say that you need to have some sort of ability to do savage. Someones not going to clear if theyre just goofing off not doing a rotation or paying attention.

When you say "Shadowbringers Primal EX" drops are you referring to Innocence's accessories? Because Titania only drops weapons in terms of gear and only one at a time. And even in the case of accessories, the drops arent always guaranteed to be an even spread. One of my clears he dropped all casting accessories. Some of them dupes.

If you dont have good luck on rolls, thats unfortunate for you, but its no ones problem but your own. You can upgrade the 460 tome gear, its not like youll be stuck in it forever. And again if youre clearing regularly then you have pages to buy pieces amd upgrade materials with.

[ForteNightshade]

Your opinion not a fact - So if all 470 is not needed why are people still NEEDING it for their alt classes if its not needed as you say

Because they want it? Wanting something is not the same as needing something. I thought much was obvious. Accessibility only implies one's ability to access the content and, theoretically, complete it. Since Savage currently meets this criteria. It is, thus, accessible. With the reduction of its difficulty, ease of jobs and etc., it's even more accessible. Nothing about this is an opinion. It's fact.

kind of sounds elitist

Implying someone has to be good to clear Savage at an ilvl below the recommended minimum, is elitist now? Okay...

Okay let me Explain again - Shadowbringers Primal EX drop job based gear (FENDING - HEALING - CASTING - AIMING - STRIKING) - which only the jobs that use these items have the ability to roll NEED feel free to double check that if you need to - this is what I meant - Sorry but your statement is incorrect.

Yes? And it drops gear—weapons and accessories only, to be fair—based entirely on RNG. You are not guaranteed to see a Fending ring or a Warrior axe. What prompted this argument was your insinuation loot was guaranteed. It isn't. So no, my statement wasn't wrong. Furthermore, this is what the old system was. And it's bad. You can kill Titania 50 times and never once see that aforementioned Warrior Axe. The only reason people aren't nearly as bothered this is because there isn't a weekly limit on farming totems. You also have crafted as a direct alternative.

I have the same chances as everyone else 50 - 50 and the reason I said 4 drops is because then all roll chances are 50 - 50. Tanks and healers would have 1 drop chest - DPS would have 2 drop chests. . .everyone has a 50 - 50 chance of getting something. Also no it dose not double the loot table 3 items drop adding 1 more dose not double that doubling would be 6

No, you don't. There four DPS sub-categories: Maiming, Slaying, Casting and Aiming. Therefore, the DPS can have any two of those four drop in your system. In other words, they have a 25%. These odds diminish even further when it comes to accessories since Ninja shares with the Range and Dragoon shares with Monk and Samurai. As for doubling the loot table. You wanted, and I quote, 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS drops per floor, yes? Currently, you only receive two equipment drops in every floor except E1S. Thus, your solution adds two more: which is four.

They don't want people gearing up that quickly - YET some people have their main and an alt class if not 2 with all 470 gear. . . .thats very quickly. This system would just make sure that this wouldn't happen and pace everyone, instead of what has happened happening.

Also you are saying I should put up with tombstone gear thats 460 . . . so why cant the people who have managed to gear their main with 470 and their alt with 470 . . .or their 3rd alt class with 470 - why cant these people be satisfied with 460 on their alt classes like you are telling me I should be with my main. ????????

That means they are still partaking in the content, which means they're still gearing. SE doesn't care if it's your main, alt, alt character or your cousin Dwayne. They want people to keep participating because content this content is supposed to last. If you can gear extremely fast, so could the person now who lucked into additional gear for their alts. Which means, now both of you will have less incentive to keep doing Savage each week.

Go ask them. A better question would be why are you entitled to the Savage drops more than them if you both put in an effort to clear? I'm fully BiS on Dragoon yet I also play tanks. If you and I both join a party, why should I get nothing out of the run except a page—which you also get? Why does your main have priority? Would it be nice of me to pass, especially if I don't need the piece? Sure. And I more than likely would. But I'm not obligated to do so.

[Mavrias]

You are now sounding offensive - also how is suggesting a solution that evens out the odds for people and allows people the ability to gear their main class before people gear their alt classes foolish - please explain how equal chances are foolish




If someone is goofing off in a dungeon are they going to clear said dungeon - no they wont - I do not think that is what the other person meant



Yes I am - and yes i see what you are saying but with a system in place that reads the party's make up - and evens out the drops say 1 for healing classes 1 for tank classes and 2 for DPS classes then everyone would have a 50 - 50 chance of getting something - this would become a better system than what it is now and the system being used for Savage - also can I point out even in Titania a black mage could not roll NEED for a white mages weapon, the white mages weapon would go to the white mage, the class that used it. And also the need / greed system worked fine in these primal EX's Need before Greed.



The point here is some people have managed to gear their main classes and are still getting items for their alt classes the system i am suggesting would at least allow people to gear their main classes first and then allow people to have gear for their alt classes - basically it just means some people would wait before gearing alt classes - in my opinion not a big thing - Clearly some people think its a huge issue to not be able to gear what ever number alt class after people gear their main. You say use the tombstone gear - well couldn't the people who are gearing their alt classes use the tombstone gear while people gear their main classes ?

The foolish comment was specifically in regards to you claiming someone saying "you can clear savage in less than ideal gear if youre good enough" is elitist. Hence, why it was in the same paragraph. Also dungeons are brain dead easy enough (and without consequences) that a person probably could still clear them.

Most people who are gearing alts (at least that i know) are still attempting to get BiS, which requires a mix of savage gear AND tome gear. So they are in fact using tome gear for alt classes.

I've stated earlier my thoughts on your idea for a new system even in pug groups (to reiterate, it limits people's flexibility to fulfill multiple roles as needed, as they wont want to join on a class that they dont need gear for, as well as being really inconvenient for static groups. Also, in the case of dps its not a 50/50 chance as theres not a guarantee that say an aiming piece will drop with a DNC/MNK/DRG/SMN comp.) Also your idea favors those who start the tier later than others, which would be a nice catch up mechanic for say 5.15 or something, or even in 5.2. Not so good for when the content is current.

[HyoMinPark]

Another long post incoming. I should probably stop resorting to writing novels...but there was a lot to say...

Now that I have finished my breakfast—

Thats fine feel free to, but remember I will respond you give your opinion and I will give mine. And my opinion is this The current system is not working, there are people gearing their 3rd 4th or even 5th alt classes and people still struggling to gear their main classes let alone an alt, that is a FACT.

A bit of a reiteration, but the current system seems to be working fine if, as you say, there are players out there already gearing alts. That means that their mains are geared—which implies the system is working.

Saying that the system isn’t working simply because you’ve specifically had poor luck doesn’t mean that the system isn’t working as whole. Keep in mind that there are players that have been clearing this content consistently for 9~10 weeks—and I mean the tier as a whole, not just the first two floors. Are they supposed to yield to players that are late to clearing the entire tier? Why? What good reason can one provide for this?

The second fact is this, this system works better for people in statics who know the people they are raiding with and are making sure that the people they are raiding with are geared, and vice versa. Others have also said this, and a system friendly to people who pug things would be welcome, also I believe it would encourage people to take part in this more.

I won’t argue that this may work better in statics—but I think that’s purely a result of statics being willing to organize loot distribution. This is something PUGs aren’t willing to do, although it is still possible should they opt to put in the effort to do it.

Encouraging easy gearing for PUGs won’t really incentivize Savage—because the system isn’t why players don’t participate. A lot of players don’t participate due to personal skill. Others don’t like Savage anymore because there’s no longer prestige to clearing (e.g., the content is too easy compared to the past, and rewards can be earned by anyone in a year or two down the line when everyone has better gear and can steamroll the content). Some don’t raid Savage because the gear doesn’t last longer than six months before being invalidated.

There’s a myriad of reasons why players don’t do Savage content. I’d wager to say that the current gear system is fairly low on that list of reasons.

My solution to this is propose a combination of an older system the system being used in Shadowbringers Primal EX's and tweak and improve on it yet again, to make it fairer than the current system which allows some players who are lucky to gear up multiple classes and some who are unlucky to struggle gearing their main.

The Shadowbringers EX primals system IS the old Savage loot system: RNG loot drops that players can either NEED on or GREED depending on if it’s for their class/role or not.

There is nothing special about the EX primals loot system. It has the same pitfalls as the old Savage loot system—the weapons are actually really bad in terms of drop rate : 1 weapon drop per primal with a loot table of 17 different options. That makes theoretical drop rates of getting the items you want a 1/17 chance—a 0.058% chance you’ll actually get your weapon to drop in a given run.

There is a system like this currently in place being used in the primal EX's if you go in to a shdowbringers primal ex and have certain tanking items equipped then tanking items drop you can not roll NEED on the tanking items which do drop, same for healers, and DPS, this also allows people to gear their alternative classes as people no longer NEED items and then the system then goes by GREED and also allows people to gear their alt classes with the tokens that drop from the boss.

As I said above, this system is literally the old Savage loot system: Savage loot used to drop 2 items from a set table of loot once a week when people cleared. The 2 items could be Fending, Healing, Maiming, Scouting, Slaying, Aiming, or Casting. They could be any combination of the above (e.g., Fending and Healing; Healing and Casting; etc.) or even double drop the same role (e.g., Fending ring, Fending belt)—they could even be the same item (e.g., 2 Fending rings).

This system does not allow one to gear up any faster or slower because all runs have the possibility of dropping loot that no one actually needs (e.g., non-BiS items, or items that people already have). The new system drops coffers that one can use on any job/role to receive any piece of gear that they want—near guaranteeing that useless drops aren’t a thing anymore.

This system would be an improvement to the one used in Savage in my opinion, at least then there is a stronger possibility people would gear their Main Classes instead of some players who are lucky to gear up multiple classes and some who are unlucky to struggle gearing their main.

A system shouldn’t be changed because some players have bad luck with their rolls. There is no way for you to arbitrarily decide who “needs” gear more than someone else; and you can’t really dictate that gearing mains is “more important” than someone gearing an alt when you are dealing with strangers.

Again, I really want to stress that some raiders have been clearing this content since Week 1. Those players will almost always gear up faster than players who have not been clearing it since the first week—or who haven’t ventured into later floors yet, as you yourself haven’t. You do not have the authority to limit players that have more clears under their belt on gear. You don’t even have the authority to limit players with better luck than you on gear. That’s a selfish desire if that is what you desire.

I do believe it could still be worked upon though in the way in which you suggested earlier by having a way for the system to read the parties make up. I also believe this is a good suggestion and improvement for the current system, make a coffer Unique so players are stopped from obtaining more than one piece of gear per floor, I mean there has to be something thats better than the current system we have because its basically a system that favours lucky people and statics. Not people who PUG and others agree the system is really bad for PUG.

I’m not opposed to making coffers Unique items. But I have to disagree with the algorithm to read party compositions being the best solution here. As I have said before, it runs into issues with gearing alt classes—and eventually that is what players shift to. As I’ve also said previously, “just join on your alts” doesn’t always work.

I never said people should lock anyone out of anything

In all fairness, you are advocating for a system to lock players out of gearing alts before others gear their mains. You are under the impression that prioritizing those who are gearing their mains is more important—but you don’t have the authority to really make this declaration. No one player is more important than the other when it comes to obtaining loot drops in scenarios where players have not directly established loot rules—which is how most PUGs are run.

also no, I do believe the need and greed system would work it would just mean that someone who wants to gear their Tanking alt wouldn't get the TANKING gear until the people who main TANK had the gear, but it would not stop them gearing their main class, which is what the tank is also doing so I believe thats a fair system not like the current one which allows some players who are lucky to gear up multiple classes and some who are unlucky to struggle gearing their main also again they could gear their alt classes via the totems that drop.

You are still proposing the old system is better—if the old system was so much better, why did the developers change it? And, again, you’re trying to assert this declaration that players gearing their mains are more important than players gearing their alts. You don’t have the right to really say that. I’m sure you don’t want to hear that, but it’s the truth.

The system I am suggesting would be fair, it just means people would have to wait before gearing their alt classes thats not very much to ask for people to wait like possibly 2 weeks before gearing an alt class while people gear their main class, Or gear their alt classes by using the weekly books,

Why should players who have been consistently clearing the content for 9~10 weeks be force to wait for players that aren’t? A lot of the players that are currently gearing alts have had the tier cleared likely since Week 2 or 3 at the latest. Why should they yield to players that haven’t cleared the tier yet? Regardless of the circumstances behind why some haven’t cleared the tier, no one has the right to tell others to yield on gear for them. You are allowed to ask, but no one has to do as you ask.

And you do realize that the books are another example of a two-way street? Players can just as well tell you to gear your main using your weekly books as much as you can tell them to gear their alts this way.

And yes I believe someone who is gearing their MAIN class lets say a HELAER has a greater need and should get a HEALER item before someone gearing their like what 3rd alt class, and suddenly fancies gearing their healing class that they use once a year. Yes I believe hat is a greater need.

I’m sorry, but you don’t really have the right to tell anyone that gearing yourself is more important than them gearing themselves. Alt classes or no. You can’t be the arbiter of this.

There has always been a book system, this could be used by people who have been lucky enough to gear their main class while others gear their main class.

The books came with Alexander. They weren’t present at all during any of the Coils.

Correct me if I am wrong but Alexander Savage dropped certain gear which could be NEEDED for example FENDING - HEALING - so on and the classes could NEED these so basically that meant that if they dropped and someone who played a class that needed it rolled need it went to them, if they didnt NEED it, it went to the person who rolled the highest GREED

Coil, Alexander, and the Omegascape raids dropped two random pieces of gear from each floor—which pieces dropped were determined by loot tables for each fight, but they were always random pieces. I’ve already explained the old system countless times at this point—these random drops may have been nice for the reduced competition, but they also came with the downside of dropping pieces that were completely useless (e.g., Casting pieces in comps that didn’t have casters; Aiming gloves that weren’t even BiS for any of the jobs).

This was better than the system we have now, also with the suggestion you made reading the class make up I think this could be an ideal system. However you are right people will have issues gearing their alt classes, they may or may not get loot drops depending on party make up for their alt classes, but then they could use the tokens (books / totems whatever) to gear their alt classes they dont have to roll on items for their what like 3rd 4th or 5th alt class.

The old system was not better because of the useless gear drops. I’ve already brought up how my Alphascape static took 9 weeks to see a single Slaying accessory. Every other week in o10s, the Aiming gloves with drop, and these gloves were not BiS for BRD or MCH (they were actually hot garbage). I had a friend who raided during Creator, and enough tank coats dropped from a12s that their entire static had a coat—meanwhile, the coats they actually needed weren’t dropping at all.

I’ve already discussed the issues with the system I proposed—you cannot implement a system that renders loot drops useless halfway into a tier when most players running Savage (hardcore, midcore, and softcore) have their mains geared.

People seeking to gear their mains can also use their books. Books aren’t a token limited to alt jobs only.

gear alt classes with weekly tokens and allow people to gear their main classes first

Weekly tokens can just as well be used for main classes as well. You don’t have the right to tell players to limit their alt jobs to books only. I’m sorry.

No a lot of other players who are in statics they have already geared their main class at the end of the day there are a lot of people who PUG things that are still trying to gear their main class and are not able to because they are contending with people who have already geared their main class in a static and their static is now on a break and they are running savage to gear their alt classes

You cannot say this with any certainty. There are plenty of players that PUG Savage from Day 1 and have already geared their main jobs—so they continue to run to gear their alt jobs. There are players in statics still trying to gear their mains—just like there are players in PUGs still trying to gear theirs.

you have to consider at the end of the day these people are entitled to gear their main class just like the people who are in statics and at the end of the day why should they have not been able to gear their main class because they lose a roll to someone gearing a 3rd 4th or 5th alt class, while that person gearing the alt class has a - in my own opinion lesser need for the items - there are other ways these people gearing their alt classes like i said the weekly books could gear them why not use these ways and make it fairer for people gearing their main, thats why I think a need / greed system would be better here than the current one.

I will say this one more time: no one person is more entitled to gear drops than any other person; main class or alt class, it does not matter. You have no right to tell other players that you are more entitled to a piece of gear than they are. Just like they cannot tell you that they deserve it more than you.

I have not once said there should be no competition I have simply said I dislike having to roll against people who are gearing their possibly 14 classes when I am gearing my main class, and I did prefer the old system in the way that the 2 Tanks could roll for the fending gear and if 1 of them needed it they would get it before say the summoner who has a level 80 tank but doesn't like being a tank and doesn't tank but has it unlocked. I do not see the issue with what I have just said, personally I think the summoner would be greedy to roll and is then just rolling for the sake of rolling, like the bard I had previously spoke about he had all BiS, the other classes he has levelled at 80 use the same gear and the same combination, he could use all the gear he already has for the classes he has levelled so why did he roll for the gear, I mean it is of 0 use to him. . . he will probably throw it away. . . its of no use to him. . . unless he plans on levelling 1 of his level 10 classes by which time the item will have been replaced by a higher ilvl item.

With the case of the bard and summoner—you cannot determine how they will use their coffers, nor if they will never use the coffers that they rolled on. Even if the BRD didn’t need the belt or the head piece for their main, they can still use it on an alt that they have leveled.

So yes you did say I wanted the perfect system - I dont I just want one that allows people to gear their main first before others move on to gearing their army of alt classes, I just want a system that I if a tanking item drops I can NEED it if I need it and if I do not I will pass on it so that whoever wants this -or if the other tank needs it they can get it. Thats not unreasonable. I think people who NEED gear should get it before people who GREED gear.

There is a difference between saying “if a perfect system is what you’re after” and saying “you’re asking for a perfect system”.

I think its in my third or fourth post and I did state I checked it because I wasn't 100% certain and yes after double checking the bard did also have the BiS headgear, he infact had the BiS for all the slots, he had 0 need to roll, also his other classes use the same gear. . . unless hes going to equip it to 1 of his level 10 classes, it was a wasted roll.

I’m not going to discuss this BRD anymore—but are you saying you actually looked him up and say that he had 10 level 1 classes? Regardless, you can’t tell him he didn’t “need” the gear. If he had 5 other level 80 classes, how can you say he didn’t “need” the piece for one of them? You can’t. And you don’t have a right to, in all honesty.

Well I have said enough times I personally think people who are gearing their main should take priority over people gearing alt classes who have already Geared their main class, and that there should be a need and greed system, it would work in this case, and personally the other system with the suggestion both you and the other person suggested would make a better system still. You say people would have issues gearing their alt classes now as a result of this - how many classes have you managed to gear to date?

And I have said over and over again that you cannot decide who is more important and who is less important when it comes to gear. That’s just not something you have the authority to determine.

As for how many class I’ve fully geared? This is irrelevant to the conversation but if you really want to know: two—DNC and BRD. And you know why they’re fully geared? Because DNC and BRD share BiS gearsets. I’ve been clearing E1S and E3S since Week 1, E4S since Week 2. And I only have 2 jobs fully geared. BRD reached fully geared last week when I bought the bow with my E4S books.

when is enough enough basically

It’s not up to you or me to define when enough is enough with regards to gearing.

I say people who are generally gearing alt classes are in Statics which is a true statement, and yes the system you and the other person suggested would not 100% work here for gearing alts, HOWEVER there are other methods in which to gear an alt class like the books, people gearing alt classes dont necessarily have to take priority on loot rolls, to gear their alt classes. they could just be satisfied with having geared their main class and gearing 1 or 2 alt classes at a slower rate for a time while others gear their mains with the need and greed system. Not the perfect solution's but a better one than we have now which favours statics.

It’s not a true statement—because there are players gearing alts that aren’t in statics. If your statement can be disproven, it’s not a true statement.

I’ve already discussed the downsides of this system. And that books are not relegated purely to “alt jobs only”. I won’t repeat that anymore.

Correct you can not force them to be decent and pass the item to the person who needs it, however there is a system which dose distribute loot to players who roll need and who do need things, this and it is already in use in dungeons

If you are meaning the guaranteed drop at the end of each Leveling Dungeon, they will never implement this for Savage.

- Primal EX's - if I roll need on a tanking item I get it, if I dont get a healing item dont mind because I dont need it, the healer should get it.

Again, this was the old Savage loot system. There is nothing special about the EX loot system—it functions just like the Savage loot system functioned back in ARR, HW, and SB.

Personally this system is far more flawed than others currently in use and that have been in use and is allowing people to gear whatever number alt class thay are currently on over someone who is gearing their main class. This is not a working system this is a system that as others have said favours statics. I just think this system is not working because people are not happy to pass items when they have their main classes geared, and are gearing their alts in opposed to someone who hasnt got their main class geared. I personally would be happy to gear my main class and gear an alt class using the books, I am in no rush to gear my classes, but I do think its unfair someone who has 3 alt classes geared is still able to gear yet more, and get more loot drops than me. This system is not working.

So, because of how people are, you are going to argue that this system doesn’t work? It seems to work in JP, where players in PUGs will only roll on one item and not multiple items. But NA/EU refusing to use a system a certain way doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a defunct system.

No offense, but if you are in no rush to gear your classes, why all this hubbub about changing the system?

I have not said that once at all, I have simply stated facts. I have not told people you must you need to, not said that at all. I did say it is easier to gear alt classes in a static and it is, and I have also said people who are gearing their alts are mostly members of statics again this is true.

Gonna show your data proving that this is true? Because, as of right now, it’s pure speculation on your part.

Im sorry but I disagree - gearing a main class is needing the gear - Gearing an alt class is Greeding the gear you have already geared your main allow others to gear their mains please first - thats fair and decent and it would also encourage more people to take part in savage content in my opinion knowing that while not guarentted a drop they do have a higher chance of getting something than what they do now.

I disagree. I think that neither you nor me can dictate who takes priority when it comes to gear in PUGs. Statics are different—because static members agree to loot distribution when they discuss the tier. But PUGs rarely have these discussions, so you cannot decide who is more important and who is less important.

And I doubt that guaranteeing gear will encourage more people to run Savage content. This playerbase is largely casual in nature—casuals that have no interest in raiding will not participate in the content, regardless of the carrots dangled, if they don’t want to.

Also it only allows people to Gear up faster if they are lucky, some people are gearing their 3rd / 4th / 5th alt class Im gearing my main thats not me gearing up at the same speed as them despite probably having the same amount of clears. That is a flawed system sorry but it is especially when there are other ways to gear up an alt class, like using the books for example. I mean there like with that one bard, he had all BiS gear, he did not need anything at all, his classes used the same gear, he wouldn't have he couldn't have benefited from the items he had.

I would wager that those gearing up their alt jobs already probably have more clears than you. They’ve certainly cleared E3S and E4S already—otherwise, their main wouldn’t be fully geared, as weapons are necessary for that—where as you have not. Even if they had less clears than you, that doesn’t give you the right to say “I deserve this more than you”. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t.

Unless the BRD also raided on DNC and MCH, that’s the only way his drops would benefit each of those classes. If they wanted to play healers, obviously the gear they have for their physical ranged will not work for healers. I don’t think anyone is really entitled to talk about what the BRD wanted or what they planned to do aside from themselves. At the end of the day, all of this “he won’t be using the gear”/“he doesn’t need the gear”/“he has zero use for this gear” is speculation on your part.

Personally I think you were snippy with me first, but of course we will both disagree on this, I assumed you were perfectly fine with taking gear away from other people, because you sounded as if you were and you still kind of do you see no issue with someone being able to gear their 3rd 4th or 5th alt while others struggle to gear their mains

What I’m okay with and not okay is irrelevant to the conversation—so you really shouldn’t have tried to bring it into this. Ultimately, I believe that no one has the right to tell any other person what they can or cannot roll on in a PUG setting, if they are more important than this other person, that they deserve priority on gear as opposed to this other person, etc.. That’s not something that anyone has the right to do—and it is entirely separate from any opinions I may have on gearing mains versus gearing alts.

I see this as an issue to be honest, people do have a right to gear their alts, but I believe it should be done AFTER people gear their mains, I have cleared Eden E1S every week since release, excpet the first which I missed due to ill health, I have had to buy the majority of my 470 gear with books and other people are gearing ALT classes - thats a flawed system.

I’m in a static and had to buy one of my Savage accessories despite clearing since Week 1 (3/5 of my pieces where tome). In Alphascape, I had to buy my Aiming body because it never dropped after 8 weeks of clearing Final Omega. That’s just the luck of the drop. Likewise, it took me until last week to actually win the Savage mount from this tier because I didn’t roll higher than a 30; and I was the last DPS in my static to get the weapon coffer because I kept rolling the lowest. That’s just the luck of the roll. However, having bad luck doesn’t mean that the system is flawed. As I said above, clearly it works if people are already on alt jobs, as you have claimed.

This system as one person previously said is far to good on staics and I understand why you like it so much, and would be loath to lose it, but everyone is entitled to try savage and everyone is entitled to gear their classes and Main class should have priority they do in Primal EX's they do in dungeons why not in Eden Savage as well

Whether or not I’m in a static is frankly irrelevant here. I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up. I would hate to lose this system purely because it means returning to a system where people end up with useless drops versus one where people are always guaranteed something that will be useful—whether it’s for their main class or an alt class.

Yes, everyone is entitled to run Savage, and everyone is entitled to gear. That means that you cannot force players to yield to your vision of “main jobs deserve priority—don’t roll for your alt classes”. That’s what it means when you say “everyone is entitled to gear”.

The primal accessories are a new thing—introduced in Stormblood with Lakshmi EX. They are only present in one of the first EX primals in an entire expansion. All other primals are a single weapon drop: from a loot table of 17 different possibilities. The accessories in an of themselves are not perfect: I had to buy nearly all of my Innocence accessories because, in the 20 runs my static did, one Aiming accessory dropped. So I had to buy the other three. That’s the luck of the drop. This system really isn’t that special.

the system needs to be more considerate of people who pug things. People can gear their alts different ways while others gear their mains once everyone has their main geared have at it on the alts thats better than what we have now.

People can also gear their mains in different ways. Most BiS sets take a combination of Tomestone and Savage. You are able to get Tomestone gear while still trying to win Savage gear—and when you get the correct number of pages, you can buy those Savage pieces. It’s the same system for both PUGs and statics. It’s the same system for every player pugging. Changing it because you personally have bad luck is not a reason to change it.

It is a problem because it means the system is flawed. . . a system is better when it works for everyone . . . .this system clearly dose not. I am not trying to punish people, I am simply saying do people who are gearing their 3rd 4th or 5th alt class that they do not bother with have as much of a need as someone gearing their main class - I dont think they do - So why are they making people who gear their main class gear up slower when they have already geared up their own main classes

At the end of the day, you and I don’t know what people do with the gear they win. You cannot say that players do not use the gear for their 3rd, 4th, or 5th alt classes simply because you do not know if they will not put it to use. I may not raid Savage on healers that often, but I do like to do Extremes on them. And I even took AST into UCoB last expansion—meaning I needed BiS for it.

No one is “making” anyone gear up slower or faster than anyone else. You are gearing up slower because you’ve had poor luck. That happens to more than I think you know—under both this system and the old one.

the system i am suggesting would just stop this - also there are weekly books people could use to gear alt classes. Its not the bad rolls its the system in my opinion an ideal solution should be TANKING items dropping HEALING items dropping and the DPS items dropping and those who use these items be able to NEED on them if they need them and passing on them if they do not and also incorporating the suggestion you suggested so that there are no wasted drops- it is a system that we have used before and in some aspects still do, and in my own opinion it works better than the current one, at least in the aspect of people gearing their main classes before someone decides to gear their healing class they levelled but don't play on because they hate healing

You are more than welcome to use books for your main as well—a lot of raiders have to do that. I’ve had to use books every tier I’ve raided for my main.

You are advocating to go back to the old system. I’ve said this before, but the old system wasn’t perfect. Your current suggestion of 4 drops per floor (1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 DPS drops) means players—especially tanks and healers—would gear up far faster than the developers want them to. The developers WANT RNG present in these loot drops. They WANT players to keep running the content—tiers are supposed to last six months. Guaranteeing that tanks clearing Week 1 are fully decked out in gear they need by Week 4 defeats this purpose.

Honestly we are not going to see eye to eye on this so is there any real point in continuing to argue about this, I have given my opinion and a possible solution which would in my opinion be better to people who PUG. You say no this wouldn't work because people cant gear their alts as quickly - I say yes it would work it just means gearing your alt class would have to wait until others have geared their mains before you can roll on that loot piece. It seems you are okay with people gearing their alts before others manage to gear their main, I personally am not. I think people gearing main classes should be able to NEED items they need and get the items they NEED instead of the summoner who never plays that class. Enjoy your breakfast ^^

What I’m okay with and not okay with is irrelevant—I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. I am merely looking at these systems from all sides; and telling you that NO ONE—meaning you, me, Jimmy, that guy over there, whoever—can tell players “I deserve this gear more than you do” or “I’m gearing my main and it’s more important than your alt class”.

The items present are generalized coffers that can be used for any class—therefore, anyone can roll NEED on them, and anyone can potentially need the item. A BRD rolling on a head piece coffer when they don’t need it for BRD doesn’t mean they don’t “need” it for another job. Ultimately, this entire discussion is about “wants” under the guise of “needs”. Technically, the only people that “need” full BiS are those planning to tackle the next Ultimate in a month. This entire conversation boils down to what players “want”—you want gear for your main (which is fine), and Bobby wants gear for his alt (which is also fine). None here are more important than the other.

I did enjoy my breakfast, thank you~. It was fabulous. Now I am eating lunch and waiting for my next class to start.


As a tangent on the “that’s elitist” comment about players clearing Savage in i440 gear if they’re good enough: that’s not really an elitist comment to make. It’s a comment about certain players’ skill. Some players are more skilled than others, and it’s not elitist to point that out. It’s just a fact of life.

[Mavrias]

I said the if your good enough part was elitist - and it is



But they already geared their main some people still struggling to gear their main the people you know are gearing their alts.



It dose not limit anyone's ability to Gear alt classes as there are other ways to gear their alt classes - no one has to go in to savage on a class they do not play - to be able to gear it - what I am suggesting is simply use a system that allows need / greed and allows people to gear their mains before gearing alts. Also no my Idea dose not Favour anyone who starts the tier later my idea just allows everyone to be able to gear their main classes as a priority - Also being inconvenient to static groups the current system is inconvenient to pugs.

Thats not elitist. Either you do or dont have the capability/ desire to do savage. If you dont you wont clear. And theres nothing wrong with it if you can't. Especially below minimum item level like that poster was saying. Thats just a fact.

You seem to be under the impression that because someone has an alt it means they don't play that class. That's fundamentally untrue. A main is someones preferred or favorite job. I main gunbreaker for most content and for my fc group, but sometimes i want to play black mage and so i'm gearing it, too. I take both into high level content as well as into expert roulette and stuff. I also like healing and sometimes will switch roles with my group's sch for funsies. BLM and SCH aren't not played just because they arent the first things i geared up.

I didnt say "limits ability to gear alts." I specifically said, "limits ability to fulfill multiple roles as needed." because you will miss out on gear you want for an alt if you dont queue on that alt. thus if a party is full on dps but has a slot open for a tank, a tank main wont join because they want the gear for their dps.

also, i pugged for the first 3 weeks. Really nice to lot on three items and win two of them. A static will hand out loot as needed, usually dps first, so if youre trying to gear quickly, technically it'd be better for you to pug and take your chances.

[HyoMinPark]

Your statement was wrong - also if you didnt know Titania weapons can be bought with 10 tokens you dont have to kill it 50 times.Also implement the system that the other person suggested where it reads the party make up and drops loot for the classes in the party.

Likewise, Savage items can be bought with 4/6/8 books depending on the item. The only difference between Savage tokens and EX tokens are that Savage ones are currently on a weekly lockout.

What ForteNightshade is saying is that you can run the content 50 times and still not see the specific weapon you are after drop from the boss—which is completely true. Titania weapons have a 1 out of 17 chance to drop, which is roughly 0.06%. It’s irrelevant if you can buy the weapon you want after 10 runs: what matters is that there’s a very likely possibility that it doesn’t drop at all. This new Savage system eliminates some of the drop RNG, and the trade-off is increased competition.

Okay math time - 2 tanks 1 chest = 50/50 2 healers 1 chest = 50 / 50 4 DPS 2 chest = 50/ 50 if we are using the system the other person said about it would be a 50/50 chance and limit people to 1 item per floor.

This is incorrect for DPS. DPS would be a 1 in 5 (20%) chance to drop the applicable coffer to drop on all floors save for the first one, which would be a 1 in 4 (25%) chance.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm just suggesting working on the loot system not the difficulty

Which accessibility doesn't apply to outside of meeting the minimum ilvl requirement. You can move the goal post to Narnia, it's still inaccurate.

The way you phrased it did sound elitist

It was blunt. There's a difference. Saying someone has to be good to clear with weaker gear is in no way elitist regardless of how I phrase it.

Your statement was wrong - also if you didnt know Titania weapons can be bought with 10 tokens you dont have to kill it 50 times.Also implement the system that the other person suggested where it reads the party make up and drops loot for the classes in the party.

No, it wasn't. You can keep telling someone they're wrong. It doesn't mean they are because you say so. I'm also well aware of how loot drops work. The point was no content content guarantees a specific drop outside of Leveling. It doesn't matter that you can buy the Primal weapon. That wasn't the argument. You can also buy Savage gear. If you don't want to use consumables, you're at the mercy of RNG. Even with your algorithm suggestion, it's still RNG whether the weapon drops.

Okay math time - 2 tanks 1 chest = 50/50 2 healers 1 chest = 50 / 50 4 DPS 2 chest = 50/ 50 if we are using the system the other person said about it would be a 50/50 chance and limit people to 1 item per floor.

Math time, hmm? Okay...

Tank: Fending
Healer: Healing
DPS: Maiming, Striking, Casting, Aiming

Since only two DPS items can drop, and there are four categories with possible duplicates. It isn't 50%. You have a 1/4 chance per loot drop of it being of the sub-category you're after. Case in point, the Dragoon head and Feet both drop for the DPS slots. Three roles (Second Melee, Caster and Range) received nothing. This is impossible for tanks and healers who have no sub-category within their role itself.

Basically, your math is wrong.

This would allow more people to participate as it would make it more desirable to more people - also again gear extremely fast people geared their main - their 1st alt - and like their 3rd alt. . . .some still smuggling to gear their main - Im suggesting a system that evens it out.

No? The only restriction on Savage is being i450. And that is only if you queue via the raid finder. A full pre-made can be any ilvl they fancy, though it's generally expected you're i450. I can take my alt character, who will be full i450 once I finish the MSQ on her, into Savage right away despite having no gear from Savage. Therefore, Savage gear itself can't be a barrier. Does it make things easier? Sure. But that's also why tome gear exists. Not to mention, 5.1 will release i460 gear.

You keep confusing your arguments. Wanting to tweak the system or offer an alternative is fine, even if I and/or others may disagree with your suggestion. But the current system has zero bearing whatsoever on your ability to participate in Savage.

Why should you be entitled to gear a class you dont play over someone who plays a class and want to gear that class - it comes down to this are you satisfied with gearing 1 main class and allowing others to gear their main class then gearing alts . . .

You have no idea what I play. Speaking specifically, I frequently bounce between Dragoon and Tanks. Therefore, I want to gear both. Just because one of those is my secondary doesn't change the fact we're both participating in the content. Think about it. I'm saying everyone has a fair shot at all the coffers and item upgrades which drop since everyone contributed to the clear. They can, if they feel so inclined, elect to pass on drops. You think they should feel obligated to pass because you want the gear.

Which sounds more entitled?