How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Shurrikhan]

Respectfully disagree because in the tank community it largely doesn't come down to how we should spend out time, but bigger numbers. It's almost never, what can I do to make my healers life easier but generally, "They'll pick up the slack, I'm going for more damage!"

Hasn't that also been the lead complaint? That there's rarely any case in which the best answer isn't just the "biggest numbers" answer? And that rather than diversifying what we can do as tanks, they simply made half our average mitigation over time passive and reduced our maximum relative damage to compensate*? (Not by as much as we gained in passive mitigation, but still.)

[ForteNightshade]

E2S Guillotine's will kill people if the boss isn't centered correctly. A real problem on Cycles.

Not really. Even if Voidwalker were positioned diagonally, you can still dodge Guillotine just fine so long as people pay attention. And that's a rather extreme example since at best, he'll be slightly tilted. But should we count that an example. Okay... one mechanic spanning four fights. Not exactly what I'd call a big impact. Unfortunately, positioning largely involves inching the boss up slightly or moving it back to center, eventually. It's never been a significant aspect of tanking in FFXIV.

Which is why I (and others) advocate for increased "tank stuff" to do in lieu of turning us even more into a dps and homogenizing the game even further.

I'll reiterate. It's been six years. If they were going to put greater emphasise on tank responsibility. They would have by now. Asking for a return to their SB scaling is simply betting on the horse you believe SE will actually listen to. It's why the Healer forum doesn't bother asking for a buffs and debuffs style of gameplay in lieu of just DPSing in their downtime. They know SE isn't going to implement it.

Tanks were not nerfed. Our damage went up substantially with the release of ShB. If our damage had been lowered by a certain % since the beginning of ShB then that would be a nerf but that hasn't happened. Raw tank damage is much higher than it was in SB. How much that damage has increased relative to other roles is irrelevant because comparing damage across roles is meaningless.

Actually, it's quite relevant because it directly correlates with how our scaling was changed arbitrary. Looking strictly at pDPS for comparison sake. Tanks went from roughly a 3k difference to nearly double. Others have already calculated the estimated loss, and we have Yoshida outright claiming he believed tanks contributed too much damage. It's undeniable tanks scaled significantly lower compared to Stormblood. Now if that change accompanied increased tank mechanics, be they boss positioning, debuffs or the necessitate of more mitigation, one might argue it a fair trade off. It didn't. We're simply weaker—comparatively speaking—because reasons.

Again, tank damage has not been lowered, it just hasn't been increased as much as it could be. This has had no negative effect on the game; tanks can clear all content, solo, 4-man, and 8-man, without any problems. EX fights were being cleared with ilvl 430 weapons within hours of people reaching 80. Savage was cleared within 24 hours of it's release. The only reason this is any kind of issue is because some people saw a bunch of numbers and decided that their numbers weren't big enough, and that this made their tank job less fun.

Remember; increased complexity isn't going to mean more damage. It'll simply mean damage is shifted from one part of the job kit to another, essentially giving more buttons to press while getting the same return as before. Tank damage is objectively fine right now, both within the tanks and as a part of the larger game. Content is being cleared just fine by a variety of compositions. There is no need for a tank damage buff. There is simply a desire by a small group of people to see larger numbers, and to hell with how this will affect the balance of the game.

Please do not use the "they can clear content" excuse. Not only does it dismiss the argument but is, frankly, rubbish. Bard can clear everything yet gets stomped into the ground by a decent Black Mage.

That tangent aside, I never said tanking was less fun. I mean, I'm switching from a DPS to a tank because I still enjoy the latter quite a bit. None of this has anything to do with complexity. I'll say this once again. I simply find it silly a job with upwards of a fourteen button rotation; which is punished far more should they mess up said rotation, can be matched by a job with three; less if you take out oGCDs. You keep suggesting increasing the tanks DPS will lead to homogenization yet they already are, and always have been, beefier DPS. That does not change if tanks are doing 8,000 or 12,000. Because of that design, however, people typically find it more fun seeing higher numbers. There's a reason FFlogs is so widely popular.

But more so, it's the arbitrary nature of the nerf that upsets some people. And yes, it is a nerf. What did SE offer tanks in exchange for slicing their scaling? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You simply do less damage now comparatively because they felt tanks contributed too much. That alone rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

[Quor]

Not really. Even if Voidwalker were positioned diagonally, you can still dodge Guillotine just fine so long as people pay attention. And that's a rather extreme example since at best, he'll be slightly tilted. But should we count that an example.

"There are no mechanics where positioning matters."
"Guillotine in E2S."
"That doesn't count."
Oh goody, another game of "catch the moving goal posts."

Okay... one mechanic spanning four fights. Not exactly what I'd call a big impact. Unfortunately, positioning largely involves inching the boss up slightly or moving it back to center, eventually. It's never been a significant aspect of tanking in FFXIV.

The entirety of BCoB would like to talk with you. So would most of Alex and at least half of Omega.

I'll reiterate. It's been six years. If they were going to put greater emphasise on tank responsibility. They would have by now. Asking for a return to their SB scaling is simply betting on the horse you believe SE will actually listen to. It's why the Healer forum doesn't bother asking for a buffs and debuffs style of gameplay in lieu of just DPSing in their downtime. They know SE isn't going to implement it.

Minus the times that they implemented it (SCH crit buff, the entirety of AST's card kit in 3.0 and 4.0). Let's also not forget that they removed a pair of skills at the start of ShB (Hagakure and Energy Drain) only to reintroduce them following player feedback.

Actually, it's quite relevant because it directly correlates with how our scaling was changed arbitrary. Looking strictly at pDPS for comparison sake. Tanks went from roughly a 3k difference to nearly double. Others have already calculated the estimated loss, and we have Yoshida outright claiming he believed tanks contributed too much damage. It's undeniable tanks scaled significantly lower compared to Stormblood. Now if that change accompanied increased tank mechanics, be they boss positioning, debuffs or the necessitate of more mitigation, one might argue it a fair trade off. It didn't. We're simply weaker—comparatively speaking—because reasons.

It's impossible to lose something you don't have. Just because you didn't get as much as you could have doesn't mean you lost something. You still gained, and more importantly, it doesn't affect your ability to play the game. If big(ger) numbers are where you derive your enjoyment, then that's fine, but you don't go looking for hot dogs at a lumber mill, and you don't go looking for big numbers on a non-dps class. Complaining that you can't find any hot dogs in the lumber mill makes as much sense as complaining that tanks "could have" more damage than they already do, even though it's obvious from the content that said damage would be superfluous. It also ignores the oft-ignored (at least in this thread) fact that the game is designed around certain dps thresholds, with HP values built around those thresholds. Which no one has seen fit to address in any form of counter argument. If tank dps goes up SE isn't just going to shrug and go "Well, I guess they're killing everything 2-3 minutes faster now, pack it in guys," they're just going to scale the fights up to deal with the increased damage while maintaining a similar TTK. Functionally, nothing will change. You'll just have that warm fuzzy feeling of bigger virtual numbers and the knowledge that you forced the dev team to devote resources away from literally anything else just so that the FFlogs graphs looked a bit nicer.

Please do not use the "they can clear content" excuse. Not only does it dismiss the argument but is, frankly, rubbish. Bard can clear everything yet gets stomped into the ground by a decent Black Mage.

It's dismissive because the premise of the argument isn't even worth considering. Can the game be played and beaten using any combination of 2/2/4 tanks/healers/dps? Yes, it can. All current content can be beaten in such a way, with incentives to include a member of each "type" of role, so you don't have the issue of "let's bring two BLM's instead of a BRD and a BLM." You bring both, because BRD puts out respectable dps and provides a decent group buff while also being a very mobile dps, making it much easier for them to take care of "ranged" mechanics and thus enabling the BLM to maximize their turreting and really stretch their damage legs. In short, your comparison is terrible, because the nature of the game is such that there's not going to be an "either or" choice like you present it. Sure, BLM will output more damage than a BRD, but if BLM is the only ranged job then that BLM is going to be doing mechs before anything else, because as bad as the dps loss for the BLM will be, it's going to be worse for one of the three melee or two tanks to break melee range on the boss in order to bait aoes or what not.

That tangent aside, I never said tanking was less fun. I mean, I'm switching from a DPS to a tank because I still enjoy the latter quite a bit. None of this has anything to do with complexity. I'll say this once again. I simply find it silly a job with upwards of a fourteen button rotation; which is punished far more should they mess up said rotation, can be matched by a job with three; less if you take out oGCDs. You keep suggesting increasing the tanks DPS will lead to homogenization yet they already are, and always have been, beefier DPS. That does not change if tanks are doing 8,000 or 12,000. Because of that design, however, people typically find it more fun seeing higher numbers. There's a reason FFlogs is so widely popular.

And there's a reason why SE explicitly refuses to ever incorporate any kind of dps meter into their game. Because - for whatever reason - people find looking at what amounts to an excel graph and ogling at big numbers to be "fun." Not actually playing the game, but holding up their results of playing the game and going "look here, I parsed orange, isn't that impressive?" All of these discussions about the importance of dps for tanks and healers miss the key element; if the tanks and healers did not tank and heal, no one would win anything.

Let's break down the claim in the OP; a WHM has done enough damage to outdo a GNB. Supposedly, this is cause for major alarm. Yet, if you look deeper on it, there are a few questions to answer. First, if that WHM was able to outdo a GNB, then they must have been dpsing nearly full time. This means there had to be another healer there covering for them, essentially meaning said fight is probably something that can be solo healed. If that's the case, why bring the WHM? Why not have the WHM come on a dps? Even a bad dps will outdo the best healer or tank in the game right now. You could argue "healer mechanics" but if Guillotine can be worked around then surely a high-end raid group can innovate around a few measly mechanics, especially if it means a quicker kill. Right?
Or maybe that WHM wasn't solely doing dps. Maybe they actually healed some. Maybe their healing was still needed. So even while doing loads of dps, they threw out a few necessary heals from time to time, meaning if they didn't throw out those heals, then the raid would have wiped. At which point no one does any dps because they're all dead.

Meanwhile, the tanks are still tanking, absorbing the damage and keeping the boss where he should be. They could just say fuck it, I don't want to clip any GCD's so I'm not using any non-dps oGCD's to maximize damage, but then the tank busters come and they become so much red goo on the ground and whaddya know, the raid wipes again. All that dps, all that optimization, for nothing.
So at a base line, the entire premise is stupid from any realistic point of view. Clearly we have a WHM here who was seeking to pad numbers just to flex their own e-peen, and was in a group setup that enabled them to do exactly that. Balance decisions should never be made around outliers, and certainly not as a result of rigged statistics that are nowhere near representative of the norm.

But more so, it's the arbitrary nature of the nerf that upsets some people. And yes, it is a nerf. What did SE offer tanks in exchange for slicing their scaling? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You simply do less damage now comparatively because they felt tanks contributed too much. That alone rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

No, there is no nerf. If something is buffed, it's a buff. Just because it isn't buffed as much as it could be doesn't mean it's a nerf. Nerfing is to take something and make it weaker. Tanks are NOT weaker. They are objectively much stronger, both in terms of baseline tankiness and raw damage output. The potency difference alone more than accounts for the loss of the slashing debuff that all tanks benefited from. The entire crux of this post is that a few people looked at some numbers and collectively went:

"By the Twelve! Instead of being X% less average dps than a dps, tanks are instead Y% less dps! This is a major problem that impacts my ability to enjoy the game! Even though I only know about it because of a third party program and it has nothing to do with the core foundation of being a tank, this is causing me to really question my enjoyment of tanking! This simply MUST be remedied!"

Which is just stupid. If there were major problems with groups clearing content, and those problems came down to a severe lack of tank damage, then there would be an argument for boosting tank dps. The suggestion oft-floated in this thread is to just throw a casual 1k dps on all the tanks and call it a day. 1k dps! That's insane. I'm no top tier tank when it comes to damage but I average a respectable 8k on my GNB and just shy of 8k on my DRK, and people want to just increase my damage by 12.5%? They want to just increase all my potencies sans auto-attack by ~15%? That is fucking insane.
Furthermore, how would it even be done?! Are we just going to blanket buff all the tanks, regardless of how they perform? So the uber raid tanks who push 10k regularly without even trying are going to get boosted by 1k, but also the just-barely-there tanks who average 6k will somehow, miraculously, get 1k too? There's no way in hell you could average that in any way that would work. If you boost the top end guys so that they get 1k playing 100% optimally, then the low-end guys will only get a fraction of that, so you're not really boosting "tank dps" by 1k. So fine, you boost the low-end guys by 1k, but now the optimal dudes at the top-end are running 1500 or more extra dps, blowing through content like it's nothing. Talk about throwing balance (and caution) completely out the window.

And herein likes a major crux of the problem; utilizing FFlogs as a metric for how you should buff (or nerf) a class is a terrible idea because it's all just statistics. FFlogs does a great job of logging dps, and that's all it does. It is not a tool for balance. The absolute insanity of suggesting a casual 1k (or hell, even 500) dps increase for "all tanks" just so that the graphs look nicer is impossible to overstate. It shows an amazing lack of understanding of so many aspects of this game on so many different levels that you could write a book about it. From potencies to weapon damage interactions to auto-attack contributions to screwing with relative TTK's....and that's just the obvious stuff.

Lest my tone come off as uncaring, believe me, I am anything but. I am sympathetic to people wanting to have "fun" with a job they play, whatever that job may be. But when said "fun" comes at the cost of upending major aspects of combat in this game for no reason other than "it feels bad to have lower dps than I believe I could have" then I gotta call it out. It's selfish. It's short-sighted. It's outright ridiculous. It's eminently counter-productive, a waste of limited resources. And it does nothing to address what is arguably the only major problem with tanks right now. Namely, the relative lack of "tank-like" stuff to do with our in-combat time.

Remember, SE designs fights with an expected TTK at a given ilvl as their baseline. Boosts (or nerfs) to damage are so that encounter clear times fall within the appropriate TTK range for a given ilvl. Any kind of boost beyond that will result in an adjustment of boss HP to maintain the expected TTK, ultimately resulting in no meaningful change to anything. In other words, a lot of time and effort will be put into changing a major part of the game just to make the graphs on FFlogs look nice.

[lillucario]

@Quor You keep bringing up the argument of "They can clear all current content so why change it" so I'll throw it back at you. Why did tanks need to drastically change from what they were back in SB when it was "unbalanced" when all the tanks could clear all the content at said time? There was no need for tanks to be "balanced" when you can still clear Savage and even Ultimate with a Dark Knight despite it being considered "terrible" to a lot of people. It had its issues sure but no where near as bad to warrant all the issues that we have now instead. I'd be all for more tank responsibility but SE has a track record by now that shows they're just going to make everything that isn't Ultimate easy to get into where "balance" or our actual role doesn't even matter much past survive and do damage.

What's really killed the tank role for me is the blatant homogenization with the overall tanks and Dark Knight's "rework" being just turning it into a carbon copy of Warrior. The damage we do is only a side note for me but I wouldn't mind that much if our tank role was an actual tank role. We only ask for changes to our damage because like Forte said, SE isn't going to magically go back on their design choice to make tanking our actual number one priority. As much as you want to say tanks are tanks and not DPS the current design of things clearly say otherwise and SE looks content with it.

Also you seem to really be against FFLogs as if it's the cause of all this discourse. When it's mearly a side thing to aim for once content is cleared. If clearing content were the only metric that mattered what need is there for "balance" unless one job is severely under performing and it's that noticeable and unclearable. There is no need to for this perfect being called balance in a game where you could already clear everything regardless of what job you played. But aiming for such is the main cause of a lot of current issues more than anything. FFlogs doesn't help sure but what does them wanting to see higher numbers hurt the rest of the game when balance didn't even matter in that content to begin with.

[Quor]

@Quor You keep bringing up the argument of "They can clear all current content so why change it" so I'll throw it back at you. Why did tanks need to drastically change from what they were back in SB when it was "unbalanced" when all the tanks could clear all the content at said time?

Because that is what the developers of this game decided was the appropriate course of action. They have access to more tools and data, along with a much stronger fundamental understanding of the game, than we as players ever could have. In short, they have a plan, they have the means to execute that plan, and they have the experience, tools and techniques necessary to see that plan to fruition. We, at best, have second- and third-hand knowledge of the results of all this stuff. We see nothing but the output. We do not know how things work "under the hood" so to speak, and this game has enough of a track record to indicate that this dev team has their shit in order when it comes to making this game.

[Samsta]

No, it won't. You can survive quite easily with CDs. You also will lose uptime when Levi splits the platform in two. But don't take my word for it. See for yourself.

Interesting, well you did say the first temporary current which doesn't make you lose any uptime so I was thrown off by that. That's wasting a shit load of cd's just to get a few gcd's more though but I guess you don't need them until stormy horizon, really weird that it doesn't also give you damage down like other failed mechanics.

[Nedkel]

Currently since 5.0 we've had a healer shortage, not a tank shortage. For a myriad of reasons. Tanks aren't the special ones they used to be.

You are wrong, there are still more healers than tanks, the differences are not big as they used to but these are still there.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1801440431

If Big Numbers are your definition of fun there's 10 jobs that fill that role perfectly.

Im already playing one of those, but thanks for advice. xD
It feel so much better to see mobs in dungeons actually melting like butter, instead of pulling everything and waiting eternity for a pull to die because dps have no idea about aoe abilities at all.

But more so, it's the arbitrary nature of the nerf that upsets some people. And yes, it is a nerf. What did SE offer tanks in exchange for slicing their scaling? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You simply do less damage now comparatively because they felt tanks contributed too much. That alone rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

Its worse than that.
They actually took everything that allowed tanks in SB to make epic and diverse plays.
Warrior no longer could sustain without healer, DRK no longer could pull entire dungeon without the need of healer.
All tanks now have aoe combo, damage windows, almost exact same deffensive cooldowns, even healing oGCD are similar to each other providing comparable healing. 2 of tanks have one weaponskill combo, 2 other have two.
All have range pull, 3 tanks has the exact same dash ability.
They made them almost exactly the same, no wonder why they are balanced if they play similar and share the exact same mechanics.
And they got nerfed to the point where you are much more dependent on team than you have used to. If you have bad dps or a healer in this expansion then you may as well play trust, this lack of contribution is really visible in dungeons.
At first i thought they just made dungeons more diffucult, but it turns out it was the tanks that were nerfed.

[Bravely_Default]

As the excitement for GNB goes down it is likely the amount of tank players will drop below stormblood numbers, mark my words. You can say "oh physical numbers went up!" That's well and all. Take a look at boss hp percentages for every single boss and you will find they went down without anything given in turn. We got all these fancy new buttons, but nothing that really contributes to our actual job of tanking... look at what pld got this expac, oh right a slight defensive CD change at the cost of other defensive tools. What else? Oh right a dps gap closer, a new dps move/combo changer, an instant-cast buff and a dps finisher. You could argue that the only "tank" addition it got was the instant cast to clemency, but that's just taking the healers job at that point if we want to be nitpicky. All these new dps tools for a percentage decrease doesnt feel that good and just feels mind numbing when there isnt anything proactive for me to do

[ForteNightshade]

"There are no mechanics where positioning matters."
"Guillotine in E2S."
"That doesn't count."
Oh goody, another game of "catch the moving goal posts."

And I explained why Guillotine is a poor example. If Voidwalker is positioned on an angle, nothing changes. You can still avoid the cleave without issue. Therefore, tank positioning becomes a convenience not an inherent responsibility. If it were something impactful, Voidwalking being in the wrong spot would always kill people. Instead, people only die if they aren't paying attention.

The entirety of BCoB would like to talk with you. So would most of Alex and at least half of Omega.

Really now? Let's review Stormblood then since it's the most recent.

Alte Roite: Re-positions himself for every mechanic
Catastrophe: Minor inching for -g100 and tentacles
Halicarnassus: Re-positions herself for nearly every mechanic
Exdeath: You can move him north or leave him dead center for Blackhole. It has zero impact. He re-positions himself otherwise
NeoExdeath: Stationary

Phantom Train: Stationary
Demon Chadarnook: Cannot be moved
Guardian: Keep him center for tower positioning otherwise it doesn't matter
Kefka: Re-positions himself for nearly every mechanic
God Kefka: Huzzah! Our first somewhat movement heavy fight

Chaos: You only have to inch him upwards slightly; re-positions otherwise
Midgardsormr: Re-positions himself
Omega: Outside dragging him to the corner, he re-positions himself
Omega-M/F: Another movement heavy fight
Final Omega: Re-positions himself

So out of fifteen encounters, only two have any real positioning responsibility for tanks where a failure on their part will actually kill people. In every other fight, you either barely have to move the boss at all or they aren't even movable to begin with.

Hard to call this a major mechanic. Alexander was much the same in that "movement" often revolved around "inch the boss here because it's more convenient."

Minus the times that they implemented it (SCH crit buff, the entirety of AST's card kit in 3.0 and 4.0). Let's also not forget that they removed a pair of skills at the start of ShB (Hagakure and Energy Drain) only to reintroduce them following player feedback.

Pressing one oGCD every two minutes is not a buff/debuff system. The idea of such a design would be a consistent thing you manage throughout the fight in lieu of simply DPSing. Even Astro's cards are something you only interact with every 30 seconds. And it's all the same flavour. Additionally, there are no debuffs to maintain.

It's impossible to lose something you don't have. Just because you didn't get as much as you could have doesn't mean you lost something.

... how does this even compute? You received less than you originally had but you didn't lose something? See, you keep making this mistake. Tanks had better scaling in Stormblood, thus they were comparatively closing in damage to the DPS. That was arbitrarily changed; hence being called a nerf. You can try to spin it a thousand different ways but it's still a nerf. What you're doing is blindly looking at the damage itself and concluding because tanks are doing 8,000 instead of 5,500. They were buffed. While yes, their overall output increased. That applies to literally every job, every tier. What changed is their scaling; that was lowered. Which means tanks contribute less of a damage percentage than they used.

For arguments sake, lets use random numbers. Say in Stormblood tank scaling was 25%. If that number is now 15%, it's a nerf to their overall contribution despite the actual damage they deal still going up.

In short, your comparison is terrible, because the nature of the game is such that there's not going to be an "either or" choice like you present it. Sure, BLM will output more damage than a BRD, but if BLM is the only ranged job then that BLM is going to be doing mechs before anything else, because as bad as the dps loss for the BLM will be, it's going to be worse for one of the three melee or two tanks to break melee range on the boss in order to bait aoes or what not.

Actually, here's the funny part. It's statistically better to bring three melee even if it means one of them or the tank will be forced to disengage momentarily. Range DPS is that low comparatively. Dragoon, Monk or Black Mage can straight up die and still beat a top tier Bard. There is presently no scenario where double Black Mage or triple melee isn't superior. Hence why I referenced it when you brought up "but everything can clear!" It's a rubbish argument.

Viability does not equate to balance. Or in the case of tanks, a justification for why their damage was arbitrary lowered yet nothing else changed.

And there's a reason why SE explicitly refuses to ever incorporate any kind of dps meter into their game

That reason is they don't want people to feel bad. Admittedly, there are other concerns regarding public parsers but a significant factor is wanting lesser skilled players to assume their contributions are much higher because it makes them less likely to quit the game.

Everything after this point is just a run-a-long tangent that really has no point to the actual argument beyond "damage shouldn't matter unless you're a DPS." In this game, damage is all that matters because everything else has a threshold. You only need a specific amount of healing or mitigation whereas more damage is always beneficial.

Which is why the community places so much emphasise on DPS; the game allows them to.

You seem to only be concerned with viability. So long as everything can clear, nothing should matter. That's fine if you feel that way, however plenty of people don't. They don't like their job being arbitrarily made weaker without any reason for it, or offered something else to compensate.

[Deceptus]

You are wrong, there are still more healers than tanks, the differences are not big as they used to but these are still there.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1801440431

Im already playing one of those, but thanks for advice. xD
It feel so much better to see mobs in dungeons actually melting like butter, instead of pulling everything and waiting eternity for a pull to die because dps have no idea about aoe abilities at all.

Problem with the numbers you presented:

1) Look at the main job selection and add them up, they total more than 100% so the numbers can't be trusted. Also, the differences between tanks and healers as a % base are within the margin of error, 24.7% for healers and 21.7% for tanks. Statistically, they are essentially the same.

2) Just because you say you play a job doesn't mean you do. I'm sure SE has much better metrics than a random survey. But anecdotally, I've seen healer in need almost constantly for roulettes since 5.0 dropped. PF's and statics can't fill their healer spots.

3) Just because you "main" a job doesn't mean you play it extensively. You yourself are an example of that. According to your portrait, you main a warrior, but you claim to play a DPS. I generally consider myself a SCH main but in dungeons I play a WHM for Holy and Thin Air or whatever gets me the fastest queue, often a PLD.