The most Limited Content: Low-Level Dungeons

[Fynlar]

We aren't talking about SE just giving high level players their full kits and letting them go ham in Copperbell Mines. We are talking about SE balancing the kit in low level content, so it can be used in a low level content.

Too much effort for something that's ultimately unnecessary anyway. How exactly would you go about "balancing" something like WAR's Inner Release, for instance?

[MrKusakabe]

Too much effort for something that's ultimately unnecessary anyway. How exactly would you go about "balancing" something like WAR's Inner Release, for instance?

Does that matter though in the long run? If this game already want veterans side by side with rookies, then it should make the full deal out of it. I would rather have less bonusses and more actual gameplay. I mean, I love Red Mage for what it is: The gameplay. If I want it for the bonus only and watch a bar and a number going up, I could play a numbers game.



Story-wise for those newbies it is also fitting: Warriors of light - in plural. It nowhere says all the player characters must all be level and skill restricted newbies, it says "Duty Finder" and not "Equally levelled players" and as said before, I would not be confused if high-levelled players use their skills. It's more the opposite: I would be confused why a RDM can not raise or heal or do even a real melee rotation or when a White Mage with glowing weapons restricts him- or herself to the very basic first aid skills and you die from "something" you have skills for in your bar but greyed out.

[Jojoya]

It's more the opposite: I would be confused why a RDM can not raise or heal or do even a real melee rotation or when a White Mage with glowing weapons restricts him- or herself to the very basic first aid skills and you die from "something" you have skills for in your bar but greyed out.

Why would a new player be confused? The new player isn't going to know what's part of the job toolkit.

The irony is that always it's the higher level players who are ignorant about other jobs that start screaming for the RDM to rez a healer in low level dungeons.

If you are dying from something in a low level dungeon, that's a learn to play issue. Dungeons are designed for players to survive on what they have in their toolkits at the dungeon's level, not what's in the toolkit 30 levels later. Making those later abilities available would break the dungeon experience because you'd be nigh invincible.

[Flay_wind]

Eh, just give some aoe to most jobs at level 20 or so. It's kinda ridiculous on NIN, when earliest you have some sort of aoe is Quarn, and that's on 20 seconds timer.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Does that matter though in the long run? If this game already want veterans side by side with rookies, then it should make the full deal out of it. I would rather have less bonusses and more actual gameplay. I mean, I love Red Mage for what it is: The gameplay. If I want it for the bonus only and watch a bar and a number going up, I could play a numbers game.


Story-wise for those newbies it is also fitting: Warriors of light - in plural. It nowhere says all the player characters must all be level and skill restricted newbies, it says "Duty Finder" and not "Equally levelled players" and as said before, I would not be confused if high-levelled players use their skills. It's more the opposite: I would be confused why a RDM can not raise or heal or do even a real melee rotation or when a White Mage with glowing weapons restricts him- or herself to the very basic first aid skills and you die from "something" you have skills for in your bar but greyed out.

1.) Balancing Lv60-80 kits to work in pre-50 content will either result in:
- same-ish damage for vastly increased effort requirements (bad for the veteran)
- same-ish damage regardless of effort (effectively just prancing your fancy spell animations while rolling your face on the keyboard)
- increased damage, trivializing the impact other party members were supposed to have and making it all about levels (bad for new players)

Pick your poison, because all of them are terrible.

2.) Oh boy, lore justification.

Doing old content is not us actually "doing" the content but rather regalling in memories of it, reimagining party members and results. The reason why we dont reimagine high lv abilities is because we didn't have them there to begin with. What you ask for is us going full Wandering Minstrel and pull a Minstrel's Ballad out of our <KUPO>, vastly overexaggerating how impactful our memory is as is wont if done by our favourite Bard.

Frankly, we are no poetic minstrel, we're adventurers.

[aiqa]

1.) Balancing Lv60-80 kits to work in pre-50 content will either result in:
- same-ish damage for vastly increased effort requirements (bad for the veteran)
- same-ish damage regardless of effort (effectively just prancing your fancy spell animations while rolling your face on the keyboard)
- increased damage, trivializing the impact other party members were supposed to have and making it all about levels (bad for new players)

Pick your poison, because all of them are terrible.

It's more fun and far easier to work with than the current situation.

Even when scaled down to level 15-50 a fully geared level 80 character is going to do much more DPS/healing/mitigation than a normal geared level 15-50 character.
So we are already at the "increased damage" option.

And there are a few jobs that are doing relatively good at level 50 content (for instance DNC and MCH), while others are missing such important parts of their toolkit they are much less useful (like SMN).
Giving jobs access to their full toolkit will make balancing that far easier.
While super strict balance might not be overly important for lower level content, it's certainly not a bad thing to have either.

And of course with every expansion more low level skills have been removed to make room for new high level skills.
So running the "boring not fun old low level dungeons" is now objectively more boring than in the past, and that will probably only get worse every expansion.

[Mavrias]

1.) Balancing Lv60-80 kits to work in pre-50 content will either result in:
- same-ish damage for vastly increased effort requirements (bad for the veteran)
- same-ish damage regardless of effort (effectively just prancing your fancy spell animations while rolling your face on the keyboard)
- increased damage, trivializing the impact other party members were supposed to have and making it all about levels (bad for new players)

Pick your poison, because all of them are terrible.

2.) Oh boy, lore justification.

Doing old content is not us actually "doing" the content but rather regalling in memories of it, reimagining party members and results. The reason why we dont reimagine high lv abilities is because we didn't have them there to begin with. What you ask for is us going full Wandering Minstrel and pull a Minstrel's Ballad out of our <KUPO>, vastly overexaggerating how impactful our memory is as is wont if done by our favourite Bard.

Frankly, we are no poetic minstrel, we're adventurers.

Bro, who said anything about rebalancing? Just keep the potencies the same. They all scale with stat values. Just leave the stat values as the thing that gets synced, and we gucci. Not to mention, no one cares about balance in copperbell.

[Jojoya]

Bro, who said anything about rebalancing? Just keep the potencies the same. They all scale with stat values. Just leave the stat values as the thing that gets synced, and we gucci. Not to mention, no one cares about balance in copperbell.

Potencies have to be rebalanced because the potencies we have at higher levels don't exist at lower levels. Dungeon encounters aren't tuned around their existence.

That doesn't take into account other abilities and traits we get as we level that will increase damage dealt either directly or through indirect means like reduced cast times.

No, we are not "gucci" if all that is scaled is base stats. Stat scaling as it currently stands is already broken. Give us our normal toolkits and we become ridiculously OP.

The newbies obviously keep their skillset low - because of their level.
We "veterans" however should not be crippled like that.

We veterans need to be crippled if we decide to enter into content intended for the new players.

You don't stick a Major League baseball player on a Little League team and call it okay.

You don't let a World Champion boxer enter an amateur fight and call it okay.

If you don't want to feel crippled, you need to stick to the content intended for your level.

[Mavrias]

Potencies have to be rebalanced because the potencies we have at higher levels don't exist at lower levels. Dungeon encounters aren't tuned around their existence.

That doesn't take into account other abilities and traits we get as we level that will increase damage dealt either directly or through indirect means like reduced cast times.

No, we are not "gucci" if all that is scaled is base stats. Stat scaling as it currently stands is already broken. Give us our normal toolkits and we become ridiculously OP.


We veterans need to be crippled if we decide to enter into content intended for the new players.

You don't stick a Major League baseball player on a Little League team and call it okay.

You don't let a World Champion boxer enter an amateur fight and call it okay.

If you don't want to feel crippled, you need to stick to the content intended for your level.

Standard step is a 1000 potency aoe ability with no damage falloff, available every 30 seconds, and applies a 5% dmg up to the user. Its available at level 15. So... potencies?

Also your baseball and boxing analogies dont apply because theyre PvP systems. Dungeons are PvE. The actual equivalent would be playing Double Dragon with your much smaller sibling.