Reasonable buff to war

[whiskeybravo]

So I have to ask, why bring in a WAR when it doesn't line up great with the fight?

Because some people main WAR regardless of other opinions. I don't know if there's someone actually claiming WAR is the best tank for E4S, it'd be kind of silly to. The fact is WAR has Holmgang which it can be used to handle mechanics, and it's the only tank that can use it's invuln on the first and second Megaliths - but you are saying we shouldn't because.. reasons? You make no sense. Let WAR do WAR things and move along.

[BarretOblivion]

I am not saying you shouldn't use WAR, if you enjoy it that's on you. However, in an optimization sense, what does WAR bring to the table that would make a group pick it over an of the other choices? Holmgang? This isn't Leviathan. Its just an akward choice now. Its the same as DRK back in SB, which is where WAR has fallen to in ShB. The least played tank by a large margin where people struggle to find upsides to it over the other options.

[Capn_Goggles]

I am not saying you shouldn't use WAR, if you enjoy it that's on you. However, in an optimization sense, what does WAR bring to the table that would make a group pick it over an of the other choices? Holmgang? This isn't Leviathan. Its just an akward choice now. Its the same as DRK back in SB, which is where WAR has fallen to in ShB. The least played tank by a large margin where people struggle to find upsides to it over the other options.

Honestly, that's just being dramatic. I think the biggest issue is that because the tanks are so close together in terms of power, it really just boils down to "what's the most fun to play", and I think a lot of people just find that WAR is not very fun. As far as effectiveness goes, Warrior definitely has the most robust personal cooldown suite of all of the tanks. Raw Intuition is one stop behind TBN for strongest tank cooldown in the game, with the added bonus of being more widely applicable since there is no gamble as to whether it will burst or not, Vengeance is the same as every other major tank cooldown but with the added bonus of increasing damage output, the new Thrill of Battle is criminally underrated since it now boosts ALL healing actions instead of healing magic alone like the old ToB+Conv was geared toward, WAR still has Equilibrium which is just as good as Aurora but heals in one single burst. Then there's Holmgang, which while it hasn't had an opportunity to really shine this tier, still holds a lot of potential down the line (and it doesn't anchor you in place anymore).

There's a definite reason to bring WAR, and I will continue to stand by the fact that you shouldn't determine somethings' viability by speedkill meta, especially when the objectively weakest tank in that regard (WAR) is only 2.3% behind the objectively strongest tank in that regard (GNB). Now, I'm not going to argue that there aren't some issues to iron out, but as far as viability goes the tanks have literally never been so close, and this is despite the fact that they just tossed another tank into the mix and overhauled another one.

[whiskeybravo]

I am not saying you shouldn't use WAR, if you enjoy it that's on you. However, in an optimization sense, what does WAR bring to the table that would make a group pick it over an of the other choices? Holmgang? This isn't Leviathan. Its just an akward choice now. Its the same as DRK back in SB, which is where WAR has fallen to in ShB. The least played tank by a large margin where people struggle to find upsides to it over the other options.

If you are in a situation that allows forming a group of the "best" jobs in each role in order to have the most "optimal" composition, then perhaps you wouldn't. Never mind the fact that nearly everyone complained that WAR had worn the crown for too long, it's a bit hypocritical to take the stance you seem to have taken.

The fact remains, however, anyone that did choose WAR as their job best to learn how to take advantage of what it can still do, instead of listening to those who'd rather write-off some supposedly inferior aspect of what it brings to a raid group now.

[Satarn]

Its the same as DRK back in SB, which is where WAR has fallen to in ShB. The least played tank by a large margin where people struggle to find upsides to it over the other options.

It's not like SB DRK at all tough. SB DRK(pre 4.3) had severe issues with personal mitigation and snap aggro(back then it still kinda mattered), lowest dps of all tanks and no raid mitigation, which also meant no LB cheesing with AoE shields which was part of the meta in SB. Taking DRK was legitimately detrimental to the raid, unlike current WAR which has best(costless) self and co-tank healing, best personal mitigation and a very useful raid shield. The differences between tanks right now are minimal and while there's still better and worse picks, it hardly matters. There's no way to achieve perfect balance without making every job play the same and we're right now about as close as possible(and we've suffered some homogenization to achieve that already).

People aren't "struggling to find upsides" - there's several strenghts to WAR which me and other people have pointed out. You simply choose to ignore anything we say that doesn't fit your idea that WAR is shit because "it's not meta" or whatever. In case of e4s alone, you kept giving answers as if you didn't read other people's arguments at all, constantly repeating things that have already been debunked.

There's more reasons for a job to be underplayed than just it's power. MCH has been consistently the least played job in SB despite being meta at certain point, while WHM and SAM have seen a lot of use despite being some of the worst jobs in the expansion.

[Izsha]

When all tanks are within 2% of each other in dps, have very similar single target and raid aoe mitigation, similar defensive capabilities, the question isnt 'why bring a war' its 'does it matter at all what you bring?'. There are adjustments that need to be made, but they arent all bad. We get to immune 1 more mechanic than other tabk combos. Thays a +. It saves healer and tank CDs you would have to use otherwise. Small win. We also have to use an extra CD on the 1st buster because HG doesnt cover all 3. Small -. But its the start of the fught and those will be back anyway so its pretty inconsequential.

You gain tiny things here and loose tiny things there. Its not that war is really notably better or worse for this fight. Its just different, and the differences mostly center arround using more immunities than other combos but you have to use an extra CD somewhere else instead because the duration is shorter.

If thays not balance i dont know what is.

You are trying to make war sound like it is at a large disadvantage and downplay the extra CDs holmgang saces on the shared buster, and up playing the need to use an extra CD on the opening buster. Using a different CD rotation doesnt make war worse than other tanks for this. It just needs a different rotation to utilize its advantage in HG timer.

[BarretOblivion]

Raw Intiuition is only about 3% better than a PLD sheltron while a PLD doesn't have to give up their own personal mitigation to help another tank, in fact it thrives in this by being able to share its own cooldown. Lets look at all tanks strengths:
PLD: Best OT by a wide margin still. Intervention is extremely strong and is even stronger when you have split tankbusters like 3/4 of the fights (you could add leviathan but that's only 1 tankbuster so I'll ignore it.) Divine veil is better for the party in a shield sense because the calculation of the shield is baised off of the PLD's max HP unlike shake it off where its baised of the person who has the effect (meaning DPS/Healers get a weaker shield than the tanks). Passage of arms for more party mitigation. Finally PLD has a strong ranged capability unlike all the other tanks making it idea for fights where there are periods where you lose uptime on the boss.
GNB: on demand OT skill that's pretty good and doesn't need any job interaction but mitigates more than WAR, has a regen that can be applied to other party members. Highest damage and has a party wide mitigation that is stronger when multiple raid wide aoe's are used (ala Titan tummults/3rd phase).
DRK: Best tank for magical fights with Dark Mind. Invuln is tied with PLD when it comes to duration but can last longer if needed (downside is the dying without healing part). Again has a pary wide mitigation the same as GNB being exceptional when multiple raid wide AoEs are going out. TBN is a strong OT skill.
Now what does WAR bring to the table? It has Holmgang... which is only 1 minute shorter than LD now and only one of the fights seem to support Holmgang directly really well (Leviathan) but it also has the shortest duration of all the tank invulns. Shake it off is kinda tied with Divine veil but the tie is only because the WAR gets the sheild too, at the cost of a weaker shield for the group. Then there is the self healing which is... good for auto attacks? But its OT skill is still the weakest out of all the tanks only giving 10% and a heal that is halved to your target making the healing pathetic if you are using it for them and not yourself. WAR is designed 100% to be a MT lets all agree with this. Problem is that besides E2S and E3S ( both tanks are getting hit) there are points in each fight where that "self-sustain" means jack. If this was SB where WAR could hold a boss the entire time like E2S then WAR would be a strong MT choice, but it isn't. You need to tank swap and OTing is WARs blantant weakness. I would rather have a more versitle tank that can do both MT and OTing somewhat well. I want to see WAR get buffs to its utility. You want to thrive on self healing? Cool, remove the 50% reduction on the other target for start and split Flash and Raw so when you use one the other doesn't go on cooldown. Buff up Shake it off a bit more if you invest into it for a better shield. Maybe increase the duration of Holmgang to 7.

[Mavrias]

I am not saying you shouldn't use WAR, if you enjoy it that's on you. However, in an optimization sense, what does WAR bring to the table that would make a group pick it over an of the other choices? Holmgang? This isn't Leviathan. Its just an akward choice now. Its the same as DRK back in SB, which is where WAR has fallen to in ShB. The least played tank by a large margin where people struggle to find upsides to it over the other options.

There's only 2 tank slots. Somebody's gotta be last place. For the first time in about 5 years it's WAR.

[BarretOblivion]

There's only 2 tank slots. Somebody's gotta be last place. For the first time in about 5 years it's WAR.

Dunno about 5 years there. ARR there was only PLD/WAR and PLD was stronger. SB first raid tier for awhile WAR was still kinda... wonky? And PLD was considered the king while some would bring in DRK because WAR and DRK were somewhat close for a few months. Then WAR got the IR/Beserk change because they had inconistant damage (personally I thought this was the worst idea utterly gutting the job almost). So lets say... 3.5 years.

[Mavrias]

Dunno about 5 years there. ARR there was only PLD/WAR and PLD was stronger. SB first raid tier for awhile WAR was still kinda... wonky? And PLD was considered the king while some would bring in DRK because WAR and DRK were somewhat close for a few months. Then WAR got the IR/Beserk change because they had inconistant damage (personally I thought this was the worst idea utterly gutting the job almost). So lets say... 3.5 years.

5 years ago was midway through ARR, PLD was stronger in some cases but by that point WAR was equally liked and in other cases edged out PLD by a bit. WAR was preferred in HW along with DRK with PLD getting laughed out of the park. WAR was wonky at the start of SB sure, but still greatly preferred over DRK in deltascape and then it never got better for DRK going forward. When people brought DRK its cause their tank liked DRK, not because it was the preferred tank according to the community like PLD and WAR. WAR was top dog in HW and SB and equal with its only competitor for half of ARR. Thats 5 years.