Reasonable buff to war

[Capn_Goggles]

The best solution would actually be to knock GNB's damage down a peg, since it offers such "great" utility. But that's unlikely to happen anytime soon since it's this expansions shiny new toy.

That would be literally the worst solution. GNB is probably the only time a new job has released pretty much perfectly balanced for an expansion release. GNB offers more DPS in exchange for slightly more stringent uptime requirements, middling utility, and the worst personal cooldowns.

[Mavrias]

I am not saying you shouldn't use WAR, if you enjoy it that's on you. However, in an optimization sense, what does WAR bring to the table that would make a group pick it over an of the other choices? Holmgang? This isn't Leviathan. Its just an akward choice now. Its the same as DRK back in SB, which is where WAR has fallen to in ShB. The least played tank by a large margin where people struggle to find upsides to it over the other options.

There's only 2 tank slots. Somebody's gotta be last place. For the first time in about 5 years it's WAR.

[BarretOblivion]

There's only 2 tank slots. Somebody's gotta be last place. For the first time in about 5 years it's WAR.

Dunno about 5 years there. ARR there was only PLD/WAR and PLD was stronger. SB first raid tier for awhile WAR was still kinda... wonky? And PLD was considered the king while some would bring in DRK because WAR and DRK were somewhat close for a few months. Then WAR got the IR/Beserk change because they had inconistant damage (personally I thought this was the worst idea utterly gutting the job almost). So lets say... 3.5 years.

[Mavrias]

Dunno about 5 years there. ARR there was only PLD/WAR and PLD was stronger. SB first raid tier for awhile WAR was still kinda... wonky? And PLD was considered the king while some would bring in DRK because WAR and DRK were somewhat close for a few months. Then WAR got the IR/Beserk change because they had inconistant damage (personally I thought this was the worst idea utterly gutting the job almost). So lets say... 3.5 years.

5 years ago was midway through ARR, PLD was stronger in some cases but by that point WAR was equally liked and in other cases edged out PLD by a bit. WAR was preferred in HW along with DRK with PLD getting laughed out of the park. WAR was wonky at the start of SB sure, but still greatly preferred over DRK in deltascape and then it never got better for DRK going forward. When people brought DRK its cause their tank liked DRK, not because it was the preferred tank according to the community like PLD and WAR. WAR was top dog in HW and SB and equal with its only competitor for half of ARR. Thats 5 years.

[BarretOblivion]

Soo... 3.5 years? According to your logic then PLD has been top dog for even longer. Ignore ARR when you only have 2 options for two slots lets focus the argument on when they had competition.
HW? Yeah WAR was always played. SB? Beginning first 6 months until Sigma it was kinda split between DRK/WAR then WAR stayed top after the change. I mean why isn't DRK/GNB the top dogs and PLD at the bottom? See the slippery slope of "well WAR doesn't need to be the king all the time". No it doesn't but that doesn't mean it should be the worst either. Healthy discussion on small changes to WAR until 6.0 where they will likely give WAR a full rework (cause if they don't I'll go into a comma playing WAR)

[Izsha]

When all tanks are within 2% of each other in dps, have very similar single target and raid aoe mitigation, similar defensive capabilities, the question isnt 'why bring a war' its 'does it matter at all what you bring?'. There are adjustments that need to be made, but they arent all bad. We get to immune 1 more mechanic than other tabk combos. Thays a +. It saves healer and tank CDs you would have to use otherwise. Small win. We also have to use an extra CD on the 1st buster because HG doesnt cover all 3. Small -. But its the start of the fught and those will be back anyway so its pretty inconsequential.

You gain tiny things here and loose tiny things there. Its not that war is really notably better or worse for this fight. Its just different, and the differences mostly center arround using more immunities than other combos but you have to use an extra CD somewhere else instead because the duration is shorter.

If thays not balance i dont know what is.

You are trying to make war sound like it is at a large disadvantage and downplay the extra CDs holmgang saces on the shared buster, and up playing the need to use an extra CD on the opening buster. Using a different CD rotation doesnt make war worse than other tanks for this. It just needs a different rotation to utilize its advantage in HG timer.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Just so people are aware, the DPS gap between WAR and GNB is anywhere between ~2-5% depends on whether you're looking at rDPS vs aDPS. There's also fight-by-fight variance to consider, as well as the percentile bracket, but they're not nearly as relevant as rDPS vs aDPS. It's all well and good to look at rDPS when you're doing comparisons within a job, for the most part, but it doesn't give you the full picture when comparing different jobs.

Also, regarding E4S and Holmgang, while it is good to use Holmgang on the first Monolith, it's generally a waste to use it on the second Megalith. Hardly anything is going on at that point of the fight, so you're better off lightly mitigating it and saving Holmgang for the final phase (I use it on Earthen Anguish and have the healers pretty much ignore me up to that point).

[BarretOblivion]

Just so people are aware, the DPS gap between WAR and GNB is anywhere between ~2-5% depends on whether you're looking at rDPS vs aDPS. There's also fight-by-fight variance to consider, as well as the percentile bracket, but they're not nearly as relevant as rDPS vs aDPS. It's all well and good to look at rDPS when you're doing comparisons within a job, for the most part, but it doesn't give you the full picture when comparing different jobs.

Also, regarding E4S and Holmgang, while it is good to use Holmgang on the first Monolith, it's generally a waste to use it on the second Megalith. Hardly anything is going on at that point of the fight, so you're better off lightly mitigating it and saving Holmgang for the final phase (I use it on Earthen Anguish and have the healers pretty much ignore me up to that point).

Excalty, Holmgang can be nice for one Monolith, after that its basically kinda pointless till the end where you are saving 1 cooldown for each of the tanks for soaking it... but honestly that cooldown when you need it will be up again for the final Monolith (rampart).
When it comes to DPS Im not mentioning DPS, that's up to SE. WAR should be the lowest dealing tank because it has the lowest skill floor/cieling of all the tanks now with GNB definately the highest and only getting a small amount more damage than WAR. That is of course if GNB can keep uptime on the boss. If they can't and WAR can land all of its IRs with no problems then they are even. PLD on the other hand... I can't think of a scenario where WAR would be dealing more than them besides maybe AoE? But that's padding and I think PLD is stronger in that aspect to (slightly). When you factor in raid buffs... WAR only is affect greatly by 5, Brotherhood, Embolden, Devotion, Technical Finish and Trick Attack. Battle litany and Battle Voice have low effects on a WAR compared to all other tanks so if your group is running a DRG/BRD you are missing out unfortunately.
However as you stated, its fight by fight basis and on E4S WAR can get brutally cuck*d by mechanics and waist IRs with how akward the fight can be for them. Missing an IR is just a death sentance to a WAR.

[ForteNightshade]

Excalty, Holmgang can be nice for one Monolith, after that its basically kinda pointless till the end where you are saving 1 cooldown for each of the tanks for soaking it... but honestly that cooldown when you need it will be up again for the final Monolith (rampart).
When it comes to DPS Im not mentioning DPS, that's up to SE. WAR should be the lowest dealing tank because it has the lowest skill floor/cieling of all the tanks now with GNB definately the highest and only getting a small amount more damage than WAR. That is of course if GNB can keep uptime on the boss. If they can't and WAR can land all of its IRs with no problems then they are even. PLD on the other hand... I can't think of a scenario where WAR would be dealing more than them besides maybe AoE? But that's padding and I think PLD is stronger in that aspect to (slightly). When you factor in raid buffs... WAR only is affect greatly by 5, Brotherhood, Embolden, Devotion, Technical Finish and Trick Attack. Battle litany and Battle Voice have low effects on a WAR compared to all other tanks so if your group is running a DRG/BRD you are missing out unfortunately.
However as you stated, its fight by fight basis and on E4S WAR can get brutally cuck*d by mechanics and waist IRs with how akward the fight can be for them. Missing an IR is just a death sentance to a WAR.

Difficulty or complexity should never be considered for job balance. All it accomplishes is punishing you for playing an "easier" job, which in turn, makes people not want to play them. It also isn't anywhere near consistent. Ninja and Summoner are by far the most complex DPS yet neither compete for top tier in their respective category; Summoner getting absolutely bodied by Black Mage.

Ironically, you could make a case Warrior is actually much harder to optimize than say Paladin due to how clunky Storm's Eye, IR and Infuriate can be.

[whiskeybravo]

Also, regarding E4S and Holmgang, while it is good to use Holmgang on the first Monolith, it's generally a waste to use it on the second Megalith. Hardly anything is going on at that point of the fight, so you're better off lightly mitigating it and saving Holmgang for the final phase (I use it on Earthen Anguish and have the healers pretty much ignore me up to that point).

Seems like that would depend slightly on the comp. Bene saves healer GCDs, and instead of using CDs for 2nd Megalith you can use them to boost SiO for previous tumults. Our PLD uses HG on last Stonecrusher (2nd and 3rd hit) and Megalith, so there'd be no point in my saving Holmgang for that.