Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Rika007]

snip

I think were in the same camp just looking at different where things should be. If I were approaching balance I would like to see 'tiers' of damage and adjust based off the amount of rDPS a jobs brings to their personal output. The lower tier a job brings personal damage, the higher it's rDPS support should be, and then within those tiers I would apply the hypothetical "mobility" and '"rez" taxes. The only job that would be tough to classify is NIN, as we don't know how reworked NIN is going to approach Trick Attack. As it currently stands it's still the most powerful raid DPS utility in the game, but it might not stay that way, but I will act like it remains that way.

Super Greed:
-BLM
-SAM
-MCH

Damage Centric, Soft Support:
-MNK
-SMN
-BRD
-DRG
-RDM

High Support, low Damage:
-RDM
-NIN
-DNC

[Zyneste]

NIN below SMN?

This only works if you give back Machinist Dismantle and a new damage utility ability to take place for the loss of original Hypercharge. MCH is a greed class., it does not contribute to rDPS at all. While it's mobility should mean that it won't be outputting the exact same as BLM or SAM, it's numbers need to reflect that very greedy playstyle or it has no reason to exist. Bard is in a similar spot in that if the devs continue to hold to this idea that it should be the middle ground between DNC and MCH (which most BRD players don't like but that's another issue), much like how SMN is a middle ground between RDM and BLM, then BRD's numbers should be right around where SMN and DRG are.

Now if you give both these jobs back their support kits? Different story, they can have that lower personal output.

Nin is tied with SMN. MCH needs to stay close to brd/DNC for overall raid DPS. It also has infinite mobility. It cant get much higher than DNC in total RDPS or will become mandatory, a greedy class or not. [Remember that RDPS is Personal DPS + the Damage brought from raid buffs so for MCH VS dnc for example, these would total within 1% of each other. MCH doesn't need extra offensive utility because it brings the same RDPS from just personal DPS.] Each role needs to stay within close proximity to each other or face becoming irrelevant.

Nin could probably be 96.5, but I dont think id put it any closer. DRG has less variance than even mnk on fflogs so I wouldn't put DRG above MNK [its more consistent, so in a way its even easier.] NIN being at the bottom, but lacking support, where as MNK does is somewhat unfair. NIN really should have gotten something to replace its aggro niche.

You cannot balance/punish rdps from having some Defensive Support, or at least not by much. Mantra though is exceptionally awkward seeing as the other melee really don't have any additional support.

Ideally all classes within a role should be within 1% of each other. Raise tax has that be adjusted so that RDM/SMN can substitute for the 2nd melee.

Melee [2nd melee slots options are all within 1%]
Ranged [All within 1%]

RDM/SMN having defensive utility shouldn't affect their place in the rankings. They have lower damage than BLM by a mile. BLM is the only reason there is a Raise tax. Its to protect BLM and keep it relevant, not to protect the melee DPS or Ranged.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

The gap between MNK (the highest) and NIN (the lowest of the top half) is only 500~ dps. The real issue is everything under NIN. From NIN to MCH there is a 700dps gap between the two. The balance only gets worse from there because MCH is the top end of the undertuned jobs. I'm intrigued why you think MNK needs a 'hard' nerf when in relation to the other top dps it's not far ahead.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount (all bosses)
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=65 (Eden Prime)
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=66 (Voidwalker)
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=67 (Leviathan)
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=68 (Titan)

MNK is only top in the 2 fights at all percentiles that have no positional requirements involved. Due to the nature of those fights removing positionals of course MNK is going to be top; because MNK gains the most when not missing any positional. Granted, Titan is a bit trickier, but generally 50% of the fight is positional-free. I've said it before and I'll say it again, MNK is only above BLM in some fights due to the design of the fights that require no positionals inflating MNK's DPS.
Furthermore, remember that FFLOGS calculates including Raid dps now. Raid utility jobs SHOULD be at the top when taking into account raid dps (but the discrepancy between DPS shouldn't be as large as it is). Otherwise what's the point? The point of selfish DPS is that they excel with the support jobs and that they don't have to worry about buffing others. IF BLM and SAM were top according to FFLOGs numbers it would mean that a selfish job that offers no raid dps utility is and will always be better than a support DPS and there would be no point in taking anything that wasn't a selfish DPS. Selfish DPS should be below, but only by like 100dps if that. Of course the reverse is the same too. No point taking selfish if the support is too good. So have a never ending cycle from both sides thinking they should be better. /shrug.

They just need to buff the lower half of the jobs and slightly increase NIN and SAM. That's about it. Monk doesn't need 'HARD' nerfs though, when it's only infront due to raid design. Put positionals on all the fight and you'll quickly see that MNK isn't top and BLM is the real outlier. But I assume you'd be fine with BLM being the best? Because it's been conditioned into people that selfish dps need to be at the top, disregarding that the rankings are taking into account raid contributions.

[Rika007]

Nin is tied with SMN. MCH needs to stay close to brd/DNC for overall raid DPS. It also has infinite mobility.

Infinite mobility only matters if encounter design forces it into relevance, and simply put it's been a VERY long time since any encounter basically had a spot that essentially had to have a Ranged Physical DPS to do the job. Current fight design and mechanics of jobs is allowing for melee's to have nearly 100% uptime, and intelligent casters to use cooldowns in a way that their mobility loss is mitgated (especially in the case of black Mage, who can essentially go 20 seconds of movement without a single missed GCD if they plan properly).

Now if they decide to start making prolonged moments where a single player needs to bait ranged mechanics for an extended period of time, or, have mechanics that enforce multiple moments of melee down time, then sure, Ranged Physical DPS would have a valid reason for their "mobility tax" and they would not need as much as a buff as most players say they do now. But the reality is that current fight design does not allow for ranged to shine with their advantages, and good luck getting players to not have issues with fight design that would allow for it. Melee's wont like fight design that forces them off attacking, casters won't like fight design that forces extended movement beyond what they can plan for, and healers won't like fight design where ranged players have to leave the range of their AOE heals and essentially baby them like they have to baby tanks. So for now, ranged DPS need to be given nearly the same level of balancing and damage as the other players. MCH should be just a hair off SAM and BLM, but also should be out DPS'ing jobs like MNK and SMN. BRD should be just a hair off SMN and MNK, but should be out DPS'ing RDM and DRG.

[Zyneste]

MCH should be just a hair off SAM and BLM, but also should be out DPS'ing jobs like MNK and SMN. BRD should be just a hair off SMN and MNK, but should be out DPS'ing RDM and DRG.

Doesn't this just lock MCH/BRD for the free slot? Ranged are fundamentally the most consistent between all roles, from lack of positionals, cast times and range and bring high defensive utility at no personal DPS cost [gcd wise.] This also assumes that every job is within what 3% of each other? Where would your % breakpoints be if you set it up as I did. Im curious not badgering

[Kabooa]

Doesn't this just lock MCH/BRD for the free slot? Ranged are fundamentally the most consistent between all roles, from lack of positionals, cast times and range and bring high defensive utility at no personal DPS cost [gcd wise.] This also assumes that every job is within what 3% of each other? Where would your % breakpoints be if you set it up as I did. Im curious not badgering

This was the reason I made the comment in the other thread that the role system has to evolve.

We're slowly losing differentiating mechanical boons and boiling down to only damage, and while that's sort of always been the mentality (that has likely lead to this development), I think the train needs to turn around.

We need more pronounced and celebrated differences, but we can have them in a role system designed for it. I think we can borrow Paradigms from FF13 for this and use them to great effect.

Commando - A role that focuses on creating advantages for SKill Chains / Spell Burst (Effectively Team combos)

Ravager - A role that exploits openings and buffs provided by others. (Pretty obvious who goes here)

Saboteur - A role that debilitates enemies and opens up exploit windows.

Synergist - A role that boosts the party.

By expanding from 3 roles to 4, we create more incentive to bring one of each. By celebrating role specific synergy, we create more incentives to bring one of each, but not necessarily punish having more than one.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I think were in the same camp just looking at different where things should be. If I were approaching balance I would like to see 'tiers' of damage and adjust based off the amount of rDPS a jobs brings to their personal output. The lower tier a job brings personal damage, the higher it's rDPS support should be, and then within those tiers I would apply the hypothetical "mobility" and '"rez" taxes. The only job that would be tough to classify is NIN, as we don't know how reworked NIN is going to approach Trick Attack. As it currently stands it's still the most powerful raid DPS utility in the game, but it might not stay that way, but I will act like it remains that way.

Super Greed:
-BLM
-SAM
-MCH

Damage Centric, Soft Support:
-MNK
-SMN
-BRD
-DRG
-RDM

High Support, low Damage:
-RDM
-NIN
-DNC

Which would work if the kits themselves didn't come into play, but they do. The kits should definitely have an effect on how the damage and classes are perceived and regardless of support, NIN's rework will determine if it's in the right place or not, as right now it's needlessly complicated for not as good dps (as other melee) and then it also has support on top of it.

NIN specifically is having an identity crisis, especially after they took out the aggro management in its kit. So yeah I think we agree here.

I think MCH should be nowhere near BLM or SAM though, as they both have way more tradeoffs for their dps output, and compared to other melee dps the minute you start making a selfish long range instant cast damage dealer the meta will shift to that because it's not only easier, but safer.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Nin is tied with SMN. MCH needs to stay close to brd/DNC for overall raid DPS. It also has infinite mobility. It cant get much higher than DNC in total RDPS or will become mandatory, a greedy class or not. [Remember that RDPS is Personal DPS + the Damage brought from raid buffs so for MCH VS dnc for example, these would total within 1% of each other. MCH doesn't need extra offensive utility because it brings the same RDPS from just personal DPS.] Each role needs to stay within close proximity to each other or face becoming irrelevant.

Nin could probably be 96.5, but I dont think id put it any closer. DRG has less variance than even mnk on fflogs so I wouldn't put DRG above MNK [its more consistent, so in a way its even easier.] NIN being at the bottom, but lacking support, where as MNK does is somewhat unfair. NIN really should have gotten something to replace its aggro niche.

You cannot balance/punish rdps from having some Defensive Support, or at least not by much. Mantra though is exceptionally awkward seeing as the other melee really don't have any additional support.

Ideally all classes within a role should be within 1% of each other. Raise tax has that be adjusted so that RDM/SMN can substitute for the 2nd melee.

Melee [2nd melee slots options are all within 1%]
Ranged [All within 1%]

RDM/SMN having defensive utility shouldn't affect their place in the rankings. They have lower damage than BLM by a mile. BLM is the only reason there is a Raise tax. Its to protect BLM and keep it relevant, not to protect the melee DPS or Ranged.

I mean yeah balance relies on utility existing. So the only way to fix it is get rid of utility like Raise/VErcure/being able to double cast cures/res/etc or you have to lower their damage. Why would anyone take a SMN when you can dual cure and dual raise with a RDM? The utility should affect their place in the ranking definitely. SMN just less so than others. If I'm a melee dps in a fight, and I can't res, but the SMN is long range AND can res and can heal and can outdamage me or do close to it, what benefit is there to take me? That's the balancing act. And I feel monk works counter to this due to its raw damage output and easy to execute utility.

[Raylazer11]

They just need to buff the lower half of the jobs and slightly increase NIN and SAM. That's about it. Monk doesn't need 'HARD' nerfs though, when it's only infront due to raid design. Put positionals on all the fight and you'll quickly see that MNK isn't top and BLM is the real outlier. But I assume you'd be fine with BLM being the best? Because it's been conditioned into people that selfish dps need to be at the top, disregarding that the rankings are taking into account raid contributions.

Buffing jobs when a Job as broken as MNK won't fix anything. Even if positionals were put into the fight MNK can just give the boss the middle finger because the 2 charges of north star and the new riddle of earth exists. BLM SHOULD be on top because only good BLMs will pull huge numbers. Since you reference FFlogs you can see the median % when comparing MNK to BLM, as well as the HUGE disparity in the top and lowest DPS(both raid and actual).

Combine that with MNK's insane utility ON TOP of the huge DPS it can pull off about 20 times easier then most BLMs and that's a broken Job that's more consistent that puts SAM and NIN mains out on the street.

Please continue to try and change my mind.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

MNK is only top in the 2 fights at all percentiles that have no positional requirements involved.

First off, Monk can really ignore all directional requirements with the changes to Riddle of Earth and two charges of North Star. You'll probably have a 10 second window tops where directionals are involved due to every trial and raid having Groupwide AOE. North star, Riddle of Earth having almost 30 seconds to be triggerd, then second charge of North star makes the conversation of "Directionals" completely pointless in this expansion.

A dps like monk being that high is still unbalanced, regardless.

The point of selfish DPS is that they excel with the support jobs and that they don't have to worry about buffing others. IF BLM and SAM were top according to FFLOGs numbers it would mean that a selfish job that offers no raid dps utility is and will always be better than a support DPS and there would be no point in taking anything that wasn't a selfish DPS. Selfish DPS should be below, but only by like 100dps if that. Of course the reverse is the same too. No point taking selfish if the support is too good. So have a never ending cycle from both sides thinking they should be better. /shrug.

This would make sense if there wasn't already an objectively better kit on Monk than SAM, with more damage and more utility. Selfish DPS should be higher because that's their only job. Sure you could put a whole group of SAMs and BLMs and nuke stuff, but that's why a fight to buff utility and balance utility and buffs better to give them more of a space in the meta is being asked for. Monk doesn't have to worry about any of that because of easy raw damage, easy combos, easy directional ignoring, and easy upkeep of buffs and groupwide buffs.

But I assume you'd be fine with BLM being the best? Because it's been conditioned into people that selfish dps need to be at the top, disregarding that the rankings are taking into account raid contributions.

The answer to the question shouldn't just be "buff everything that'll fix it" when most of the jobs are already pretty well balanced minus some potency things on ranged DPS. Monk where it stands now is a really OP class and I've already covered the directionals being entirely pointless with the change to their kit in ShB.

I am fine with BLM being the best because they have Cast times, which can be interrupted, they have to move, interrupting cast time, they have to stay stationary to cast, etc. SAM should be below BLM so that BLM doesn't become useless and also because they can instant cast and their big downfall is moving out of aoes or away from the boss. There's more to the kits than just going "This does more damage so everyone will take it" without looking at their kits.