Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

This is where I put them in terms of RDPS [The important metric.]

NIN below SMN?

Woof. Why should MNK be at the top next to DRG if NIN is going to get nerfed just for Trick Attack? I wish they'd get rid of that skill completely with how people believe that's reason for everything to be nerfed.

MNK still throws off the entire meta of Melee dps if you do it this way. Because it's not just about RDPS, it's about the tools and kit.

NIN being harder to play, and then getting gimped for Trick Attack, while Monk is not only braindead easy to play but has easily accessible utility every 90secs isn't something I'll agree with.

MNK being higher than DRG is also silly to me, as their one 5% buff for other people shouldn't nerf DRG more than Monks HEALING buff and damage buff. If anything MNK and NIN should both have damage buffs equal-ish in range, but DRG should definitely be higher than Monk due to Littany's super long cooldown. The more selfish the DPS the higher on the list it should be.

Having NIN lower than even Summoner, when NIN has to deal with Mudras, server ticks, 5 buttons to get Trick Attack off, and even less contribution to RDPS than really is worth factoring in I don't see merit to.

[Zyneste]

NIN below SMN?

This only works if you give back Machinist Dismantle and a new damage utility ability to take place for the loss of original Hypercharge. MCH is a greed class., it does not contribute to rDPS at all. While it's mobility should mean that it won't be outputting the exact same as BLM or SAM, it's numbers need to reflect that very greedy playstyle or it has no reason to exist. Bard is in a similar spot in that if the devs continue to hold to this idea that it should be the middle ground between DNC and MCH (which most BRD players don't like but that's another issue), much like how SMN is a middle ground between RDM and BLM, then BRD's numbers should be right around where SMN and DRG are.

Now if you give both these jobs back their support kits? Different story, they can have that lower personal output.

Nin is tied with SMN. MCH needs to stay close to brd/DNC for overall raid DPS. It also has infinite mobility. It cant get much higher than DNC in total RDPS or will become mandatory, a greedy class or not. [Remember that RDPS is Personal DPS + the Damage brought from raid buffs so for MCH VS dnc for example, these would total within 1% of each other. MCH doesn't need extra offensive utility because it brings the same RDPS from just personal DPS.] Each role needs to stay within close proximity to each other or face becoming irrelevant.

Nin could probably be 96.5, but I dont think id put it any closer. DRG has less variance than even mnk on fflogs so I wouldn't put DRG above MNK [its more consistent, so in a way its even easier.] NIN being at the bottom, but lacking support, where as MNK does is somewhat unfair. NIN really should have gotten something to replace its aggro niche.

You cannot balance/punish rdps from having some Defensive Support, or at least not by much. Mantra though is exceptionally awkward seeing as the other melee really don't have any additional support.

Ideally all classes within a role should be within 1% of each other. Raise tax has that be adjusted so that RDM/SMN can substitute for the 2nd melee.

Melee [2nd melee slots options are all within 1%]
Ranged [All within 1%]

RDM/SMN having defensive utility shouldn't affect their place in the rankings. They have lower damage than BLM by a mile. BLM is the only reason there is a Raise tax. Its to protect BLM and keep it relevant, not to protect the melee DPS or Ranged.

[Rika007]

Nin is tied with SMN. MCH needs to stay close to brd/DNC for overall raid DPS. It also has infinite mobility.

Infinite mobility only matters if encounter design forces it into relevance, and simply put it's been a VERY long time since any encounter basically had a spot that essentially had to have a Ranged Physical DPS to do the job. Current fight design and mechanics of jobs is allowing for melee's to have nearly 100% uptime, and intelligent casters to use cooldowns in a way that their mobility loss is mitgated (especially in the case of black Mage, who can essentially go 20 seconds of movement without a single missed GCD if they plan properly).

Now if they decide to start making prolonged moments where a single player needs to bait ranged mechanics for an extended period of time, or, have mechanics that enforce multiple moments of melee down time, then sure, Ranged Physical DPS would have a valid reason for their "mobility tax" and they would not need as much as a buff as most players say they do now. But the reality is that current fight design does not allow for ranged to shine with their advantages, and good luck getting players to not have issues with fight design that would allow for it. Melee's wont like fight design that forces them off attacking, casters won't like fight design that forces extended movement beyond what they can plan for, and healers won't like fight design where ranged players have to leave the range of their AOE heals and essentially baby them like they have to baby tanks. So for now, ranged DPS need to be given nearly the same level of balancing and damage as the other players. MCH should be just a hair off SAM and BLM, but also should be out DPS'ing jobs like MNK and SMN. BRD should be just a hair off SMN and MNK, but should be out DPS'ing RDM and DRG.

[Zyneste]

MCH should be just a hair off SAM and BLM, but also should be out DPS'ing jobs like MNK and SMN. BRD should be just a hair off SMN and MNK, but should be out DPS'ing RDM and DRG.

Doesn't this just lock MCH/BRD for the free slot? Ranged are fundamentally the most consistent between all roles, from lack of positionals, cast times and range and bring high defensive utility at no personal DPS cost [gcd wise.] This also assumes that every job is within what 3% of each other? Where would your % breakpoints be if you set it up as I did. Im curious not badgering

[Kabooa]

Doesn't this just lock MCH/BRD for the free slot? Ranged are fundamentally the most consistent between all roles, from lack of positionals, cast times and range and bring high defensive utility at no personal DPS cost [gcd wise.] This also assumes that every job is within what 3% of each other? Where would your % breakpoints be if you set it up as I did. Im curious not badgering

This was the reason I made the comment in the other thread that the role system has to evolve.

We're slowly losing differentiating mechanical boons and boiling down to only damage, and while that's sort of always been the mentality (that has likely lead to this development), I think the train needs to turn around.

We need more pronounced and celebrated differences, but we can have them in a role system designed for it. I think we can borrow Paradigms from FF13 for this and use them to great effect.

Commando - A role that focuses on creating advantages for SKill Chains / Spell Burst (Effectively Team combos)

Ravager - A role that exploits openings and buffs provided by others. (Pretty obvious who goes here)

Saboteur - A role that debilitates enemies and opens up exploit windows.

Synergist - A role that boosts the party.

By expanding from 3 roles to 4, we create more incentive to bring one of each. By celebrating role specific synergy, we create more incentives to bring one of each, but not necessarily punish having more than one.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

This was the reason I made the comment in the other thread that the role system has to evolve.

We're slowly losing differentiating mechanical boons and boiling down to only damage, and while that's sort of always been the mentality (that has likely lead to this development), I think the train needs to turn around.

We need more pronounced and celebrated differences, but we can have them in a role system designed for it. I think we can borrow Paradigms from FF13 for this and use them to great effect.

Commando - A role that focuses on creating advantages for SKill Chains / Spell Burst (Effectively Team combos)

Ravager - A role that exploits openings and buffs provided by others. (Pretty obvious who goes here)

Saboteur - A role that debilitates enemies and opens up exploit windows.

Synergist - A role that boosts the party.

By expanding from 3 roles to 4, we create more incentive to bring one of each. By celebrating role specific synergy, we create more incentives to bring one of each, but not necessarily punish having more than one.

I agree that roles need to be fleshed out more. But the problem is now the game is being balanced to take away choices from the player, which is part of the problem. There isn't much build diversity or anything to begin with, and like with Warframe and other things the most powerful CC and debuff is death :P

The problem is the quantity of jobs for one thing, but also that every "buff" that people want is damage related and due to people maximizing healers and making them "easier" the meta is just do as much damage as possible. So that's why I frame my conversation about damage balancing because if we start talking the simplification of some of the jobs and the way players gravitated towards DPS even before the ShB changes we'd be dead.

[Shurrikhan]

This was the reason I made the comment in the other thread that the role system has to evolve.

We're slowly losing differentiating mechanical boons and boiling down to only damage, and while that's sort of always been the mentality (that has likely lead to this development), I think the train needs to turn around.

We need more pronounced and celebrated differences, but we can have them in a role system designed for it. I think we can borrow Paradigms from FF13 for this and use them to great effect.

Commando - A role that focuses on creating advantages for SKill Chains / Spell Burst (Effectively Team combos)

Ravager - A role that exploits openings and buffs provided by others. (Pretty obvious who goes here)

Saboteur - A role that debilitates enemies and opens up exploit windows.

Synergist - A role that boosts the party.

By expanding from 3 roles to 4, we create more incentive to bring one of each. By celebrating role specific synergy, we create more incentives to bring one of each, but not necessarily punish having more than one.

If we go by XIII's naming, weren't Commando and Ravager reversed? Ravager more quickly built stagger, while Commando had more damage per stat point and therefore better exploited Stagger (while also maintaining whatever Stagger had been pushed thus far, though that was only important outside of chained attacks via Overwhelm). I say this only because if you look at the original XIV classes, they actually dipped noticeably into these roles, easy enough to point out what was what even while no job was ever limited to just one at a time.

Lancer, for instance, was your speed-tank because it could generate openers for building up attacks, its sabotage kept enemy damage manageable (by pushing back the timers until mobs could use specials) and kept the party alive when rotating aggro via raid-wide Lifesteal buffs against the target, and it had self-buffs to capitalize on damage (which shared recast timers with the raid buff), etc., etc. Heck, Pugilist was a unique little odd-ball, roughly a Ravager/Commando, but with tricks like Taunt to exploit its versatility and aid Gladiator/Marauder interplay (whereby Gladiator could most easily shirk enmity and had the most reward from tag-teaming in or out of MTing, but was slower to generate enmity). Until the 1.2 changes, quite a few parts of their gameplay felt like interlocking puzzle pieces, but that wasn't because they were each one role; quite the opposite -- it was because of the peculiarities of how they performed each part, and what and how deeply they went into each role.

Here, ideally, I see Monk as having the most play in (XIII-style) Ravager, especially under Fists of Wind, but very decent Commando play available to it, and with some Synergist output via shared resources (think "Light/Dark Chakra" skills) with a hint or Saboteur then further sharing resources with those.

But even then, I don't think these roles need or even should be followed exactly for every job: BLM could be roughly considered a (XIII) Commando, who creates openings by which to allow for damage-chaining and capitalizes upon chained damage, but would technically have very little of that original opening bit and its damage would be less affected by damage-chaining than most Commandos. On the other hand, I'd like for BLM to be capable of a bit of mob-manipulation, as a sort of self-contained Saboteur, through its Ice, Fire, and Lightning effects. So what is it really? You mostly take it in the same context as you'd take a DRG or a SAM, but it'd come with a lot less frontline presence but more backline support, which can at other times make it fill the space of a ranged Saboteur, just trading out some more precise or sustained control to be able to outright kill some mobs more quickly.

Heck, how do we consider NIN? Is Trick Attack Commando (XIII Ravager) or Saboteur?

While the roles are decent metrics by which to line up individual skills or capacities, I don't think they need to, or even ought to, describe jobs as a whole particularly well. DRG should be DRG, not just "a Ravager" (XIII Commando). BLM should be BLM. SMN should be SMN. The problem is already that these things are too same-y. Why replace one form of same-y with another, and one that more requires threshing their abilities (not to streamline them, but --nonetheless-- to fit them to fine typal requirements)?

:: I realize this is all irrelevant for now. XIV has no room for dramatic change until our fights are more than "drain the HP counter from this variably sized cylinder until it's HP reaches zero while you stand where you need to stand and face where you must face without being distracted from draining its HP". Of course, neither will there ever seem any need to make fights more diverse than what we have until there's kits that could make use of such fights... So proceeds the endless cycle of streamlining.

[Kabooa]

If we go by XIII's naming, weren't Commando and Ravager reversed?

It's been.

Ohgodit'sbeen10years.

So my memory might be a little off - I recall Commandos being how you kept stagger from falling and Ravagers how you pushed it, but I also wasn't a master of the system.

That said, naming convention aside (Commando doesn't really fit FF14, Ravager less likely too), we aim for four distinct roles to which divide our playstyles (Jobs). In this manner, one job of each of our current roles could fit into one of these new roles.

In an ideal world, each Job could shift its paradigm and gain different traits to fit their party (A "Nuker" Black Mage has Xenoglossy, a "Commando" Black Mage has a polyglot spender to enhance a following Skill Chain / Spellburst), but in our slightly more grounded fantasy, it'd much easier to just slide each job into one and design it accordingly.

That said, we can also just shove Machinist, Samurai, and Black Mage into their own category for FF14's system ("Cannons") and make the fullsuite attribute bonus stronger.
(Instead of 1% per, it's 1% per and +4% for a full house. Easy street)

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Infinite mobility only matters if encounter design forces it into relevance, and simply put it's been a VERY long time since any encounter basically had a spot that essentially had to have a Ranged Physical DPS to do the job. Current fight design and mechanics of jobs is allowing for melee's to have nearly 100% uptime, and intelligent casters to use cooldowns in a way that their mobility loss is mitgated (especially in the case of black Mage, who can essentially go 20 seconds of movement without a single missed GCD if they plan properly).

Now if they decide to start making prolonged moments where a single player needs to bait ranged mechanics for an extended period of time, or, have mechanics that enforce multiple moments of melee down time, then sure, Ranged Physical DPS would have a valid reason for their "mobility tax" and they would not need as much as a buff as most players say they do now. But the reality is that current fight design does not allow for ranged to shine with their advantages, and good luck getting players to not have issues with fight design that would allow for it. Melee's wont like fight design that forces them off attacking, casters won't like fight design that forces extended movement beyond what they can plan for, and healers won't like fight design where ranged players have to leave the range of their AOE heals and essentially baby them like they have to baby tanks. So for now, ranged DPS need to be given nearly the same level of balancing and damage as the other players. MCH should be just a hair off SAM and BLM, but also should be out DPS'ing jobs like MNK and SMN. BRD should be just a hair off SMN and MNK, but should be out DPS'ing RDM and DRG.

Definitely disagree here. Even in Eden 1 I can ignore majority of the mechanics and continue a barrage and if you raise their damage too far you're literally making melee dps obsolete. I'm not saying Ranged DPS don't need a buff of sorts and rearranging, but puting a MCH next to a SAM and BLM would be terrible for balance imo. And I say that as someone who loves playing MCH and is one of my main classes.

Even if a good player knows "how to" dodge AOEs and stuff in things like Eden and other stuff, the sheer fact remains that they are a non issue and barely exist to a ranged instant caster like MCH. To buff them ridiculously like that would make it the most overpowered and easy to play, something we're trying to get away from with MNK :P

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Nin is tied with SMN. MCH needs to stay close to brd/DNC for overall raid DPS. It also has infinite mobility. It cant get much higher than DNC in total RDPS or will become mandatory, a greedy class or not. [Remember that RDPS is Personal DPS + the Damage brought from raid buffs so for MCH VS dnc for example, these would total within 1% of each other. MCH doesn't need extra offensive utility because it brings the same RDPS from just personal DPS.] Each role needs to stay within close proximity to each other or face becoming irrelevant.

Nin could probably be 96.5, but I dont think id put it any closer. DRG has less variance than even mnk on fflogs so I wouldn't put DRG above MNK [its more consistent, so in a way its even easier.] NIN being at the bottom, but lacking support, where as MNK does is somewhat unfair. NIN really should have gotten something to replace its aggro niche.

You cannot balance/punish rdps from having some Defensive Support, or at least not by much. Mantra though is exceptionally awkward seeing as the other melee really don't have any additional support.

Ideally all classes within a role should be within 1% of each other. Raise tax has that be adjusted so that RDM/SMN can substitute for the 2nd melee.

Melee [2nd melee slots options are all within 1%]
Ranged [All within 1%]

RDM/SMN having defensive utility shouldn't affect their place in the rankings. They have lower damage than BLM by a mile. BLM is the only reason there is a Raise tax. Its to protect BLM and keep it relevant, not to protect the melee DPS or Ranged.

I mean yeah balance relies on utility existing. So the only way to fix it is get rid of utility like Raise/VErcure/being able to double cast cures/res/etc or you have to lower their damage. Why would anyone take a SMN when you can dual cure and dual raise with a RDM? The utility should affect their place in the ranking definitely. SMN just less so than others. If I'm a melee dps in a fight, and I can't res, but the SMN is long range AND can res and can heal and can outdamage me or do close to it, what benefit is there to take me? That's the balancing act. And I feel monk works counter to this due to its raw damage output and easy to execute utility.