Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Rika007]

This is where I put them in terms of RDPS [The important metric.]

This only works if you give back Machinist Dismantle and a new damage utility ability to take place for the loss of original Hypercharge. MCH is a greed class., it does not contribute to rDPS at all. While it's mobility should mean that it won't be outputting the exact same as BLM or SAM, it's numbers need to reflect that very greedy playstyle or it has no reason to exist. Bard is in a similar spot in that if the devs continue to hold to this idea that it should be the middle ground between DNC and MCH (which most BRD players don't like but that's another issue), much like how SMN is a middle ground between RDM and BLM, then BRD's numbers should be right around where SMN and DRG are.

Now if you give both these jobs back their support kits? Different story, they can have that lower personal output.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

This only works if you give back Machinist Dismantle and a new damage utility ability to take place for the loss of original Hypercharge. MCH is a greed class., it does not contribute to rDPS at all. While it's mobility should mean that it won't be outputting the exact same as BLM or SAM, it's numbers need to reflect that very greedy playstyle or it has no reason to exist. Bard is in a similar spot in that if the devs continue to hold to this idea that it should be the middle ground between DNC and MCH (which most BRD players don't like but that's another issue), much like how SMN is a middle ground between RDM and BLM, then BRD's numbers should be right around where SMN and DRG are.

Now if you give both these jobs back their support kits? Different story, they can have that lower personal output.

Partially agreed.

If I were to have an ideal list based on yours I'd go with something like this:
BLM
SAM
DRG
NIN (If Mudras stay the same I'd argue it should be rid of TA and given higher dps but not as high as SAM)
MNK
MCH
SMN
BRD
RDM
DNC

SMN with heals and res should definitely not be that high on the list of damage. And if Ranged DPS are going to stay low they need more utility, but MCH could use a bit of a buff so long as they keep the selfish dps mentality.

[Rika007]

snip

I think were in the same camp just looking at different where things should be. If I were approaching balance I would like to see 'tiers' of damage and adjust based off the amount of rDPS a jobs brings to their personal output. The lower tier a job brings personal damage, the higher it's rDPS support should be, and then within those tiers I would apply the hypothetical "mobility" and '"rez" taxes. The only job that would be tough to classify is NIN, as we don't know how reworked NIN is going to approach Trick Attack. As it currently stands it's still the most powerful raid DPS utility in the game, but it might not stay that way, but I will act like it remains that way.

Super Greed:
-BLM
-SAM
-MCH

Damage Centric, Soft Support:
-MNK
-SMN
-BRD
-DRG
-RDM

High Support, low Damage:
-RDM
-NIN
-DNC

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I think were in the same camp just looking at different where things should be. If I were approaching balance I would like to see 'tiers' of damage and adjust based off the amount of rDPS a jobs brings to their personal output. The lower tier a job brings personal damage, the higher it's rDPS support should be, and then within those tiers I would apply the hypothetical "mobility" and '"rez" taxes. The only job that would be tough to classify is NIN, as we don't know how reworked NIN is going to approach Trick Attack. As it currently stands it's still the most powerful raid DPS utility in the game, but it might not stay that way, but I will act like it remains that way.

Super Greed:
-BLM
-SAM
-MCH

Damage Centric, Soft Support:
-MNK
-SMN
-BRD
-DRG
-RDM

High Support, low Damage:
-RDM
-NIN
-DNC

Which would work if the kits themselves didn't come into play, but they do. The kits should definitely have an effect on how the damage and classes are perceived and regardless of support, NIN's rework will determine if it's in the right place or not, as right now it's needlessly complicated for not as good dps (as other melee) and then it also has support on top of it.

NIN specifically is having an identity crisis, especially after they took out the aggro management in its kit. So yeah I think we agree here.

I think MCH should be nowhere near BLM or SAM though, as they both have way more tradeoffs for their dps output, and compared to other melee dps the minute you start making a selfish long range instant cast damage dealer the meta will shift to that because it's not only easier, but safer.