Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Shurrikhan]

I apologise for the vagueness, what I was calling "the bottom" was SAM and to some extent SMN and RDM. To me the ranged role is a different scenario entirely, and I really don't want them buffed in damage at all.

It's highly off topic, but I would rather they give BRD back foes, give MCH back dismantle, and add refresh and palisade back in as role actions. Then once that is done, adjust the DPS within the role itself. That will give the role a tonne more identity and worth within fights beyond them simply competing with MNK, DRG, and BLM in damage.

Doesn't seem particularly off-topic. If the interest of nerfing MNK is solely rDPS balance, that can still come from personal or indirect sources, so bringing BRD/MCH back up to the balanced point should include discussion of whether we want them to be nearer in %pDPS to now or to SB.

Personally, I want more support on each, but just not in the style of Bard's passive "as long as you're singing" buff.

[MerlinCross]

Ok i get you dont know anything at all about monk.Ill explain then.Riddle of earth used to put you into fists of earth stance.This was changed in SHadowbringers.So when you cast it now you stay in whatever fist stance you are in.So if you are in fists of fire you are stil in fists of fire stance during riddle of earth and when you get earths reply bonus.

I mean I'm not trying to hide that I really don't know much about Monk which is why I'm confused why it's seemed to have power spiked in damage while still not being fun to play somehow? Still thanks for the explanation, I see how that's a power spike if you can get both at once.

[ownagepuffs]

I mean I'm not trying to hide that I really don't know much about Monk which is why I'm confused why it's seemed to have power spiked in damage while still not being fun to play somehow? Still thanks for the explanation, I see how that's a power spike if you can get both at once.

Thing is, even before 5.05 Monk was still really strong. It was like neck and neck with DRG. But it still suffered from a very archaic playstyle and 2 very inflexible mechanics on top of the slowdown that everyone hated. Post 5.05 old problems went out and new problems arose, such as Form Shift making 2 of this expac's skills redundant and the job still being way too revolved around GL.

[Capn_Goggles]

Thing is, even before 5.05 Monk was still really strong. It was like neck and neck with DRG. But it still suffered from a very archaic playstyle and 2 very inflexible mechanics on top of the slowdown that everyone hated. Post 5.05 old problems went out and new problems arose, such as Form Shift making 2 of this expac's skills redundant and the job still being way too revolved around GL.

I would've thought this would have been the expansion that MNK received an actual overhaul since it's played essentially the same since ARR. I'm not saying it plays poorly right now or anything, but it's filled with some pretty baffling choices. There's so many ways of keeping greased lighting up now that it's impossible to drop it unless you die, which is already a heavy damage toll in and of itself, yet for some reason they wanted to keep greased lightning as it is without addressing it as a mechanic. Riddle of earth, along with refreshing greased lightning, is now essentially a 50% uptime true north while monk still has access to the normal version of true north, rendering positionals largely obsolete on a job where every attack in their main and off-combo is a positional. MNK still has tornado kick largely unchanged despite now having access to GL4, completely obviating it as a skill.

To me it just seems like they completely lacked any sort of vision this time around for monk, and the changes it received in 5.05 were knee-jerk band-aid solutions to longstanding QoL issues people have had with monk, and of course it ended up fairly overtuned because they clearly didn't put as much thought into what these changes would do. I should point out though, that I'm not nearly as devoted a monk player as other people, so take my opinion for what you will.

[SpeckledBurd]

I mean I'm not trying to hide that I really don't know much about Monk which is why I'm confused why it's seemed to have power spiked in damage while still not being fun to play somehow?

How well a job performs and how satisfying they are to play are two separate metrics. A job can perform extremely well or even reasonably well and the players can hate it or be indifferent to it.

Thing is, even before 5.05 Monk was still really strong. It was like neck and neck with DRG. But it still suffered from a very archaic playstyle and 2 very inflexible mechanics on top of the slowdown that everyone hated. Post 5.05 old problems went out and new problems arose, such as Form Shift making 2 of this expac's skills redundant and the job still being way too revolved around GL.

It's a little more extreme than that. By pretty much every metric except performance, Shadowbringers Monk at launch was a catastrophe that followed on the heels of what the devs admitted to be a failure of design. The devs not only failed to address any of the biggest problems players had with the Monk in Stormblood after acknowledging that Stormblood was a poor iteration of the job, but every new action except maybe Enlightenment that they implemented in Shadowbringers was also a complaint people had with Stormblood Monk. Enhanced Fists of Fire and GL4 have the same fundamental problem as Tackle Mastery in that they're Fists Stance Traits where the fist stances can be boiled down to "Sit in the one stance that boosts your damage the most" (which has been a problem of Monk design since ARR) and Six Sided Star and Anantman are redundant GL management skills, when a huge complaint in Stormblood was Monk having way too many GL management skills to begin with. The 5.05 Formshift change doesn't really add anything new in terms of problems, it just put a microscope on the problem of "There's an excessive number of GL Maintainence skills" by fixing the different problem of "Monk can't keep up it's buff in situations that other Jobs have no trouble at all in because all of these Maintenance skills are bad."

[MerlinCross]

How well a job performs and how satisfying they are to play are two separate metrics. A job can perform extremely well or even reasonably well and the players can hate it or be indifferent to it.

That people will put up with a job they dislike playing just due to the fact it puts the big numbers up on screen...., *shrug*

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Alright people, this is going to be a bit of a rant, but please, i would really like form someone to listen and give me feedback.

For those of you that do not wish to read through my detailed thoughts skip to the bottom for the outline of my proposal.

Ive been playing monk hardcore sense the Heavensward expansion, ive enjoyed the class soooo much, so this is why i would like to put my frustration out into the public. With the changes done to the monk in this new expansion( ShadowBringer ), the monk's role in the content of the game(i.e. raids, dungeons, engame content in general) is sliding into jeopardy, further than prior.

Use to be, the monk was a question of worth. It didnt bring anything to the raid group, other than high dps(if the player was good, and ontop of their rotation) and the skill mantra(lets face it though, mantra isnt all that impactfull....period.

Sense the nurf to it awhile back, it sees little use other than a cursory activation for no real reason other than just to use it), and with Brotherhood( its just a replicated effect for the raid that other classes can do, and lets face it, monks only use it for the selfish reason of charging chakra faster...in which case, even in that reguard, it seems to have been reduced in effect).

In Stoormsblood, brotherhood would turbo chakra gain, to the point where u would get the 5 before the skill even came off cooldown to use again, but now it doesnt really have much effect at all. Ive had intances where the brotherhood effect was applied to my group, and during the entirety of the duration, i didnt get a single chakra charge, even with the new enhanced meditation trait.

Moveing on from that, lets talk about the monks other skills. Before ShadowBringers, we only had one dead skill( i say dead, but really its use was just really limited, mainly just used in pvp), and that was "one ilm punch".

But now, because of changes to the skills, be they cooldown timers (perfectbalance) or just utter changes (shoulderTackle). Its made our one true opener rotation unuseable, to include the major reasoning to use the said opener, the skill "tornadoKick".

With the current skill line up, tornado kick is pointless, if u wanna try to use it u would preferably be in "fist of Fire" stance so that u dont need to stack 4 greased lightning inorder to use it, but even then. Sense we dont have wind tackle anymore to charge greasedlightning plus riddle of the wind, we cant do our opener to use tornadokick, and if we perfect balance, well........its cooldown is obsured now, double what it used to be.

HOWE COME THE MONK GOT THE SHORT END OF THE STICK HERE

Samurai is being shown sooooo much love, their skill that is similar to perfectbalance got buffed rediculouly, cutting its cooldown massivly. What im trying to say here, is give the monk the same treatment, or even just revert the nurf, give us back the tackle effects, charging greased lightning with wind tack, dealing more damage with fire tackle, and earth tackle: change its effect to some kind of defensive effect, like a stun effect.

Also, the riddle of Fire and Earth, i really like what was done with them, especially with riddle of fire. Removing the skill speed slow down on it was amazing. The monk is supposed to be a " balls to the wall" skill speed monster, and something that slows them down has no synergy with their skill kit.

That actually leads me to the level 80 skill: " six point star".....................What where they thinking when they created this skill?????? unless im COMPLETELY overlooking something, no monk worth their salt would ever consent to using this skill, ever.

It goes completly against the grain of how the monk functions, causeing the global cooldown to be converted to its cooldown which is double the normal cooldown of your skills, and its potency is not even high enough to grudgingly argue to use it cause any 2 other skill will be stronge by far, and allow you to continue ur combos, than this one skill.

And its a level 80 Skill, lvl 80. Levels are suppose to ba a way to display a pc's proficency at its job, so why would such a low impact, and completly un-synergistic skill be at the current penical of the job's skill tree????? It is the most useless skill that has ever been released for the monk. EVER.

Back to the Riddles. I liked what was done with earth and fire, i disliked that wind was removed and swaped to a cop-out to give us grease lightning 4. You should never have limited the monk to that, ever.

Instead, you should have just inserted the greasedlightning 4 trait, and left riddle of wind as a skill, and add a new trait for the fist of fire, earth, and wind... uping their potency as it were. With fist of fire, uping its damage increase, fist of wind on top of its movement speed, give it an effect to increase skill speed, with fist of earth, increase its defense buff and give it a defense effect something like nullifying knockbacks( an effect like this would go on cooldown when triggered sepparate from the fist of earth cooldown, like give it a debuffer icon on ur name with a timer to show when it is useable again.)

What you could do with the riddles, is tie the element tackles into their effects, whenever the riddle is activated, the tackle gets the additional effect of the riddle, to include every riddle active at the time of the tackle use.

So if u have a riddle of fire active, the tackle would have higher potency, if wind was active the tackle would generate greasedlightning, if earth was active the tackle would stun its target.

If all riddles were active, it would have all of their effects, so it would have higher potency, generat greasedlightning, and stun, or if only some were active...... it would have the effects of whichever riddle was active.

This would make tornado kick relavent again. effectivly giving the monk back its balls to the wall opener.PLEASE?????

The next skill id like to talk about it anatman, the meditation thing that generates greasedlightning similar to how samurai generate its resourse<tenki?> by standing still......and doing nothing......but u had to initiate the fight first.....and then do nothing for its duration.........................this goes back to what i said about the monk being a "balls to the wall" class......this skill is inherantly horrible, and i would never condone the use of it.

We have perfect balance, all be it at a horrible cooldown as of the moment, but it will generate our greasedlightning faster and allow you to deal damage at the same time.

If you try the argument of "what about downtime during the fight", well, we have form shift for that( and i really love what they did with formshift, if makes traversing dungeons much smoother, without having to generate grasedlightning constantly at every encounter, it really shows the mastery of the class, but one thing id like to say, change it so that its a trait that the monk gets at a higher lvl, say 60+ level, so that its like a obtained mastery of the skill formshift. i think that would be some good flavor), but like i said with formshif and perfect balance, anatman is utterly useless.

Now i know that was a lot to go through, but id like to talk about the monk itself now. Through the different job quests for the monk, it went through alot of lore, and different potential feature.

With this being the SHADOWBRINGERS expansion, there was one particular feature i wanted you to touch on SOOOOOOOOO much, and that was the fist of shadow.

I was so excited when it was brought up in the stormsblood expansion, i was like ooooohhhhhhh, we're going to learn the dark side of the monk.....but we didnt......and then shadowbringers was announced, and i was like.....OOOOOOOHHHHHHHH here it come, dark side monk......but it didnt.

You litterally had the perfect opportunity to do the fist of shadows monk style, but failed miserably.

That being said, here is what i really wanted to see with this expansion...pertaining to monk.

Obviously greasedlightning 4, thats just a given

Next: I want to go into the shadow sect of the monk, introduce the "DARK CHAKRA" with the light chakra. You could use the same chakra gadge, just alter the orbs so that they make a yin-yang symbol in each orb. That being flavor to show your pc's aspirations of balance.ill go deeper into this in a second.

With this you would obviously have new skills.

What i propose is this:
Have a new form: just like how we have opo opo, raptor, and couril forms, introduce a new form and trait.

NEW FORM: Dragon(whatever name really, just something suitable) with a new trait that has demolish ans snap punch enter into dragon form instead of opo opo form.

With that being said:

NEW Attack skills: 2 of them. Both requiring dragon form to use, and to keep with the style of the class mastery gooing, both will generate greasedlightning.

With the lose of the critical chance buff, monk used to have, i would absolutly make this the opportunity to add the crit buff to one of these 2 skills.
Set it so that the player has to manage it just like it would twin-snakes, using it every so often to keep it applied. The other skill could just be a damage skill, slightly higher potency than true strike.

Both of these skills need to use positionals aswell, so make the cri increaser be from the side and the damager be from the back, to keep in line with the other skills and keep u shifting back and forth.

Both of these skills having dark aligned sfx's for the motions of the skills as they are used.

An additional effect to both of these would be that crits from these would generate shadow chakra. Any crit, no chance of it happening, 100% of the times these skills crit apply shadow chakra.

This leads me to the next 3 skills:

Sense Howling fist was replaced with the chakra skill enlightenment, this gave the chakra gadge 2 skills to use, one a single target and the other a line AoE skill.

The Shadow chakra will have 2 skills as well, u could set it up to be either a party buff: with a single buff for yourself like how final chakra is a single target attack or a party wide buff like how enlightenment is a AoE attack.

OOORRRRRRR: u can have the 2 skills deal damage to the enemies in the same fasion, 1 for single target, 1 for AoE..... but have them cause a detrimental efect(i.e. a damage down debuff or a potent damage over time(DOT) effect).

But the reason why i said 3 skills is cause of the last one:

SKILL #3: askill that uses both the light and shadow chakra. It needs to be a kick attack, cause the monks strongest attacks are kicks. Call it something like (TRUE BALANCE), but it needs to be high potency ideally single target, and apply somekind of debuff maybe(blunt resist down?????).

Just throw out anatman and six sided star, they are worthless.

These are the 5 skills id like to see moving forward, they are true to the monks role and they are inspiered by the monks lore and story quests, and i would greatly desire to see this implimented.

The monk is rather clunky at the moment and i havnt heard anyone make mention of it, or a desire to fix it.

As it stands now, it just feels like the monk got the shaft with this expansion, with someone incharge just tossing some skills at the monk as an after thought, not really knowing what it would do to the job, but also not really caring either.
With these implementated, i feel that the monk would raise backinto the ranks of the other classes as a fun job for other players to play, not just the very few hard core monk players that are just playing it cause they are loyal to the class, this would give the monk REAL endgame presence, not just as a after thought.

OUTLINE

B]Skills added:[/B]

Dragon form skill 1: potency 160. Potency 180 from the back. Grants internal release buff(critical chance increase 10%) critical hits generate 1 dark chakra. Grants greasedlightning.

Dragon form skill 2: potency 230. 250 potency when done from the side, critical hits generate 1 dark chakra. Grants greasedlightning.

Dark chakra skill 1 : single target,low damage strike, high potency DoT

Dark chakra skill 2: ground AoE DoT

Equilibrium: delivers an attack with a potency of 500. Can only be executed while under the effects of fifth chakra and have 5 dark chakra. All chakra are closed upon execution.

Riddle of Wind: reduce weaponskill cast time and recast time and auto attack delay by 20%
Maybe allow a free cast of tornado kick aswell(was a suggestion someone else had.

Traits added

Enhanced Greased Lightning III: allow the stacking of a forth greased lightning

Yin and Yang: adds shadow chakra to the chakra gauge.
Demolish and snap punch now change form to dragon.

Enhanced fist of earth: gains passive effect: nullifies most knockback and sraw in effects. 60second cool down when passive effect is triggered

Enhanced fist of wind: reduce weaponskill cast time and recast time and auto attack delay by 10%

Elemental tackle: shoulder tackle becomes elemental tackle during the effects of riddle of wind, riddle of fire, and riddle of earth. Granted additional effects while under the effects of a riddle. Effects stack.
Riddle of earth--> causes a stun
Riddle of fire--> increase potency by 5%
Riddle of wind--> grants greased lightning

Skills Removed

Anatman, six sided star, riddle of wind trait



Please listen SE.

Thank you for reading this if you came this far, i do greatly appriciate it, and hope to see some feed back.

Please and thank you.

[Metalwrath]

Sonya_Nillefrant can you stop spamming on forums.
You've flamed people for disagreeing with your suggestions for monks in the 2 threads you made with this exact post stating it was off topic and now your posting an off topic post in this thread.
This thread is asking about should monk be nerfed or not.Its not about your personal version of an overhaul of the monk job from the ground up.

[gintokiygo]

Sonya_Nillefrant can you stop spamming on forums.
You've flamed people for disagreeing with your suggestions for monks in the 2 threads you made with this exact post stating it was off topic and now your posting an off topic post in this thread.
This thread is asking about should monk be nerfed or not.Its not about your personal version of an overhaul of the monk job from the ground up.

Thank you 100% agree. And to be fair I think this thread is just about done seems the dev see Melee aside from Ninja and Samurai as too strong. More likely then not Monk and maybe Dragoon could be getting nerfed

[Mahrze]

I think it needs less of an nerf and more of an overhaul. But until the devs acknowledge it, all we can see is buffs until content is facerolled again.