5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[Billythepancake]

Gives you an idea of how I view the average forum goer, don't it?

That 16 seconds is huge in Savage. Have you ever done Savage? Saving 16 seconds makes the fight a lot less stressful. That's 8 GCDs you didn't have to cast. Thats 16 extra seconds of breathing room. I cleared e4s today and we had barely 10 seconds left to clear before we hit enraged. As one of the healers, I would've killed to have had 16 seconds shaved off because I would've had less to heal, and I would've had less mp problems.

[Kabooa]

That 16 seconds is huge in Savage. Have you ever done Savage?

More than some.

[SaitoHikari]

More than some.

You main Black Mage. Your DPS party composition for your first clear of E4S was BLM/SAM/DRG/BRD. Three of those classes are part of the top 5. That first clear had a 13:25 clear time. Titan enrage is 13:31-35, depending on whether you got a fast or slow instance. That means your team was 6-10 seconds off of enrage. Considering that you were wringing your hands over semantics regarding the value of 16 seconds... Had you, the SAM and/or DRG been a member of one of the bottom five classes instead and performed at a similar percentile level, anyone can bet your ass your team likely wouldn't have cleared that pull.

You can argue however you want, but let's make it clear that you pretty much have no personal stake in this discussion (unless you're one of those people who subscribe to the mentality that inching closer to equality somehow makes your role less important), which is understandable.

One may think this mean-spirited to point this out, but I was always a firm believer in that it is foolhardy to insert oneself into a serious discussion if you either lack the experience and/or simply have no reason to care about what the other side has to say.

[Kabooa]

Y
One may think this mean-spirited to point this out, but I was always a firm believer in that it is foolhardy to insert oneself into a serious discussion if you either lack the experience and/or simply have no reason to care about what the other side has to say.

And if we did have those lower jobs, -but no one died- we probably would have killed it too. Or if we had a little more tank damage. Or if the healer didn't die at the last minute of the fight. Context is important.

You're right in that it doesn't really harm me if the average player gets a boost, but seeing as I rather like playing multiple jobs, does that mean I don't get a say in the direction their adjustments should take?

Just because I don't "main" them, as if maining a job was ever a qualifier other than "I play it more than other jobs".

If the job doesn't interest me, I don't play it. It could be the strongest job in the game, but you get rid of something I find intrinsically interesting about it (Tornado kick monk, hey), it's on the shelf. Calling out the choice of job I've had since ARR that I've played in every content I could that I've unluckily been cast as the sudden big bad atop the pyramid despite none of my opinions about how job adjustment should happen ever changing due to my own sudden placement in the overall scheme of things says more about you.

Which is a shame. I've really enjoyed reading your take on things.

[alimdia]

And if we did have those lower jobs, -but no one died- we probably would have killed it too. Or if we had a little more tank damage. Or if the healer didn't die at the last minute of the fight. Context is important.

You know what also is important? Comparing exact scenarios. Your argument is that other comps have to play perfectly in order to clear while your top 5 comp gets away with mistakes. That's what you consider balanced? The fact is that if the exact same scenario that lead to your clear would have had any job changed for the less favorable ones you wouldn't have cleared. 8 jobs performing exactly the same way, doing exactly the same mistakes, and you can either clear with seconds to spare, or not clear at all if were to switch BLM with RDM.

Why they say you shouldn't get a veto for this: because you're not the one being negatively affected by this. You could at least recognize that and walk away, or try to see the point of view of the people affected and offer your insight with that in mind.

[SaitoHikari]

And if we did have those lower jobs, -but no one died- we probably would have killed it too. Or if we had a little more tank damage. Or if the healer didn't die at the last minute of the fight. Context is important.

Yes. Re-read what you said. Repeatedly.

The context is that your party comp afforded you more mistakes. That's one of the biggest arguments in favor of this thread's existence.

I think one of the major draws to this game's endgame before was that numbers were so crunched down and classes were so finely balanced that people could absolutely argue skill level was a bigger factor over class composition in determining clear rates. The uproar is so loud now because the balance has tipped to a point where for the first time in a long while, we can no longer definitively say that.

The current state of the balance has shifted in favor of class composition, a problem that plagues many other MMOs that a good number of people in this thread likely migrated from. Even though skill level is still more important, the very threat of class composition overtaking personal skill level scares people, and most people obviously don't want this spiral out of control when there's absolutely nothing good about it for the long term health of the game. Especially in a vertical gearing progression MMO such as this one, where there's only three major pillars that contribute to your personal performance - skill level, gear item level, and class. All of that is compounded by the devs being historically slow to address the concerns of some of the classes that were in trouble last expansion. Even for the short term, there's the consideration that a new Ultimate is around the corner on top of that.

Do people here want another story? One of my static members played Dancer throughout this raid tier, but switched to a minimum ilvl Monk for E4S. So he's got a wall of 85-95 percentiles from 1-3 on Dancer, and then an 8 for Monk in E4S. He tells the rest of us that his Monk still consistently did an average of 200 more rdps than his geared Dancer at each major checkpoint during the fight (and the gap I imagine is only going to increase, as the monk fists dropped last week).

On a side note, I don't extensively play caster, but I'm still of the opinion that the raise tax on RDM and SMN is a slightly bigger problem than the situation with the three ranged classes. Of course, all these issues should be addressed at once, but the raise tax is more problematic from a design standpoint because - as I've said elsewhere - the whole party already gets taxed from someone dying in the first place, placing such a heavy tax on the two casters for simply possessing a skill (that's usually used by the healers first) that might reverse one wipe into a clear out of many dozens of failed pulls is absurd from a logic standpoint. There should still be a tax, or else who would take BLM - but it should not be as wide as a 1k DPS difference.

But that's probably the big difference between you and me. My interest in this argument is from the standpoint of a designer. If you came in here with an actual purpose, then enlighten us: What, exactly, should be done about the current state of the balance?

[Kabooa]

Yes. Re-read what you said. Repeatedly.

The context is that your party comp afforded you more mistakes. That's one of the biggest arguments in favor of this thread's existence.

More mistakes than who?

If we had a different party comp, would we have made those mistakes?

Does gear not also cover mistakes?

What's the arbitrary amount of mistakes a party should be allowed to recover from, regardless of composition or performance?

Are certain jobs more prone to mistakes than others?

Are we to balance jobs around how many mistakes they should be able to make?

Is a mistake only death?

How much should each job be able to contribute in recovering from the mistake?

[HyoMinPark]

More mistakes than who?

If we had a different party comp, would we have made those mistakes?

Does gear not also cover mistakes?

What's the arbitrary amount of mistakes a party should be allowed to recover from, regardless of composition or performance?

Are certain jobs more prone to mistakes than others?

Are we to balance jobs around how many mistakes they should be able to make?

Is a mistake only death?

How much should each job be able to contribute in recovering from the mistake?

None of these questions are relevant to the point Saito brought up. But I’m sure you know that.

If you had been on RDM over BLM, and if your team had performed exactly as they had in your clear (performing with the same mistakes: deaths, damage downs, rotational errors), you would not have cleared. If you had been a 55th percentile RDM, you would not have cleared. Currently, a 50th percentile BLM sits at 13,175 rDPS for E4S. A 50th percentile RDM sits over 1,000 rDPS below that at 12,073. Up that just a teeny bit for a 55th percentile.

The entire point of bringing this up is that some jobs and some compositions allow for things like multiple deaths, damage downs, and rotational errors; and others simply do not. Sure, better gear can also mitigate and provide wiggle room, but not as much as the job disparity we currently have can.

[Kabooa]

None of these questions are relevant to the point Saito brought up. But I’m sure you know that.

On reflection - fine.

I suppose they aren't to the issue of numbers, but they are to me. I want to know his answers. They help me understand his viewpoint better, which given the recent little exchange, I would like, because I don't know.

And its increasingly idiotic/hypocritical of you kaboaa to even bring up such questions because ive literally heard you say before difficulty of class play is irrelevant to balancing.

Please stop being arbitrarily obstinate and bringing up opinion and unmeasurable discrepencies such as:" are certain jobs more prone to mistakes?"

Answer your own damn irrelevant and unmeasurable questions..

My own opinions on the matter are already in the forum somewhere. Probably in this thread as well.

He brought up it up. I wanted more elaboration. I shouldn't need more than that to ask questions. Asking a question doesn't mean I believe whatever answer you're thinking I'm fishing for.

Chill.

3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998.

Hah.

That's fair. Thank you for humoring me. For the record, I don't really disagree with your answers, though they kind of lack the detail I wanted from them.

I'm a numbers person and I'm a details person. I like having both. I dislike having both in the "1000 more" variety.

It's weird because back in Stormblood, the argument is "You shouldn't be making mistakes, so if there are mistakes they don't matter in the grand scheme of things." when it pertained to jobs and their balance.

So when mistakes got brought up, I wanted more information. Why, did it suddenly matter if mistakes were compensated for in the kill? And if it does matter, to what extent should it matter?

And if the amount it matters should be the same, then this in turn means that design for the jobs has to drastically change not just on a numerical basis, because we've already been in a state of the game where the stuff that allowed "For mistakes" wasn't supposed to factor into the overall job balance.

Sorry for the delay. I'm trying to get another clear I ultimately don't deserve.

[CKNovel]

And if we did have those lower jobs, -but no one died- we probably would have killed it too.

Which basically explained the whole problem and why the disparity needs to be smaller.
Because your comp has more of the DPS Pantheon you are allowed to make more mistake. Our group grabbed the 470 weapons, allowing us to make more mistake because we got a dps upgrade.

It's actually the perfect example, the more DPS your team has, the more mistakes you are allowed.

Because our comp only have 1 Melee, we are punished simply because someone wants to play the job they wants.
Also that having ranged is a heavy disadvantage despite the "mobility advantage".

EDIT:Mistakes means both death and damage debuff